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<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">I am late to the game here because I am on vacation, but this may be a little trickier than first meets the eye.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">The law is clear that what happens outside the United States has no bearing on what a consumer is likely to observe in the United States. But I do not think that <b>automatically </b>excludes non-US web sites. I think one needs to drill down on the specifics of the web site to assess whether it is likely that a US consumer would purchase goods from the cite or whether the owner is soliciting purchases from the USA. Factors might include currency, shipping, types of goods (e.g. alcohol and fresh meats are unlikely to be purchased and shipped to the USA), language of the cite, how deep are the goods buried in the site, etc. I think that the absence of the two allegedly related goods from similar retailers in the USA would also be probative.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Take, for example. a Danish web site that offers coffee and tinned herring. It is priced in Krone and there is no indication that the owner would ship to the USA. That should not count. But, if the retailer offered shipping to the USA, it may count (although the currency and the nature of the goods make it unlikely that a consumer would purchase from he web site. Why would any consumer purchase coffee and/or tinned herring from Denmark when these products are ubiquitous in the USA for much less than the cost of purchasing them in Krone and having them shipped to the USA.)<br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">To be sure, there is the argument that "anyone with a web browser could access the site" but I think that proves nothing. It does not tell you whether a consumer is likely to access the site and then dig down into its sub-structure to see the <span>two allegedly related goods being offered by the retailer. I think that in all cases the Examining Attorney should carry the burden of proving that a consumer is likely to purchase the goods from the web site.<br></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><br></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span>Paul</span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><br></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span>Paul Reidl</span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span>Dickenson, Peatman & Fogarty</span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span>Napa, CA<br></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div>
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On Saturday, May 18, 2024 at 12:51:40 PM PDT, Robert Pierce via E-trademarks <e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com> wrote:
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<p class="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">I would also make the commonsensical point that foreign based websites are not evidence that U.S. consumers would consider the relevant goods are related. Consumers in Country X may find that snow cones and
day spa services are related, but that doesn't mean U.S. consumers would make the connection.</span></p>
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<p class="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"> E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Orvis via E-trademarks<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 18, 2024 2:26 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com><br clear="none">
<b>Cc:</b> Orvis <orvispc@gmail.com><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [E-trademarks] Challenge Examiner's Reliance on Non-U.S. Websites</span></p>
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<p class="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:sans-serif;">I have challenged such evidence with an analogy to Mucky Duck. Mucky Duck relatedness cannot rely on Section 44 registrations because there is no evidence of use in the US. The same should apply
to a foreign based website. </span></p>
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<p><span style="font-family:sans-serif;">May 18, 2024 2:17:05 PM Richard Schafer via E-trademarks <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>:</span></p>
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<div id="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910yqt86863" class="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910yqt8257437632"><p class="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Old serif;color:#1F497D;">You should probably review the Bayer-Belmora FLANAX litigation, as well.</span></p>
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<p class="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Old serif;color:#1F497D;">Best regards,<br clear="none">
<b>Richard A. Schafer | Schafer IP Law</b></span><span style="font-family:serif;color:#1F497D;"><br clear="none">
</span><span style="font-family:Old serif;color:#1F497D;">P.O. Box 230081 | Houston, TX 77223<br clear="none">
M: 832.283.6564 | </span><span style="font-family:Old serif;color:#1F497D;"><a shape="rect" href="mailto:richard@schafer-ip.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener"><span style="color:#0563C1;">richard@schafer-ip.com</span></a></span></p>
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<p class="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"> E-trademarks <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:e-trademarks-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">e-trademarks-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Janet Satterthwaite via E-trademarks<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 18, 2024 12:03 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Rick Bigelow via E-trademarks <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br clear="none">
<b>Cc:</b> Janet Satterthwaite <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:jsatterthwaite@potomaclaw.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">jsatterthwaite@potomaclaw.com</a>><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [E-trademarks] Challenge Examiner's Reliance on Non-U.S. Websites</span></p>
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<p class="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">These are cites from a TTAB brief on an opposition objecting to introduction of foreign confusion evidence. I did not write the brief and have not read the cases, but they may
be helpful</span></p>
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<p class="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Double J of Broward Inc. v. Skalony Sportswear GmbH, 21 USPQ2d 1609, 1612-13 (TTAB 1991); Johnson & Johnson v. Salve S.A., 183 USPQ 375, 376 (TTAB 1974) (foreign use of mark creates
no rights in mark in U.S.). See also Oland’s Breweries [1971] Ltd. v. Miller Brewing Co., 189 USPQ 481, 489 n.2 (TTAB 1975) (use or promotion of a mark confined</span></i></p>
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<p class="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">to a foreign country, including Canada, is immaterial to ownership and registration in U.S.), aff’d, Miller Brewing Co. v. Oland’s Breweries, 548 F.2d 349, 192 USPQ 266 (CCPA 1976).
Concerning possible exceptions, see Article 6bis of the Paris Convention; Person’s Co. v. Christman, 900 F.2d 1565, 14 USPQ2d 1477, 1480 (Fed. Cir. 1990) (knowledge of foreign use, in itself, does not preclude good faith adoption and use in U.S.); Double J
of Broward Inc. v. Skalony Sportswear GmbH, 21 USPQ2d 1609, 1612- 13 (TTAB 1991); See TBMP section 414(13).</span></i></p>
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<p><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#666699;">Janet F. Satterthwaite</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:gray;">|</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#999999;">Partner/
Chair, Trademark Practice|Potomac Law Group, PLLC</span></p>
<p style="background-color: white; background-repeat: repeat; background-attachment: scroll; background-image: none; background-size: auto;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: rgb(124, 134, 154); background-color: white; background-repeat: repeat; background-attachment: scroll; background-image: none; background-size: auto;">1717 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW, Suite 1025 </span></p>
<p style="background-color: white; background-repeat: repeat; background-attachment: scroll; background-image: none; background-size: auto;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: rgb(124, 134, 154); background-color: white; background-repeat: repeat; background-attachment: scroll; background-image: none; background-size: auto;">Washington, D.C. 20006</span></p>
<p style="background-color: white; background-repeat: repeat; background-attachment: scroll; background-image: none; background-size: auto;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: rgb(124, 134, 154); background-color: white; background-repeat: repeat; background-attachment: scroll; background-image: none; background-size: auto;">202-486-1578</span></p>
<p class="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:sans-serif;color:gray;"><a shape="rect" href="mailto:jsatterthwaite@potomaclaw.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">jsatterthwaite@potomaclaw.com</a>|<a shape="rect" href="https://www.potomaclaw.com" title="https://www.potomaclaw.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">www.potomaclaw.com</a></span></p>
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<p class="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"><img id="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910_x0000_i1027" border="0" width="10" height="10" style="width:.1083in;min-height:.1083in;" src="https://ukwest1-mediap.svc.ms/transform/thumbnail?provider=spo&inputFormat=png&cs=fFNQTw&docid=https%3A%2F%2Fglobebpcrm.sharepoint.com%3A443%2F_api%2Fv2.0%2Fdrives%2Fb!TQZR2-2SPE2ijySca0RSk9GWpi3pTptJqpI2GM317RV0fn8ZfIBsSZ9rpY5T6aYk%2Fitems%2F0154SFYISYVY4G5S2PLJG32IIOCE4C4SJE%3Fversion%3DPublished&access_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJub25lIn0.eyJhdWQiOiIwMDAwMDAwMy0wMDAwLTBmZjEtY2UwMC0wMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAvZ2xvYmVicGNybS5zaGFyZXBvaW50LmNvbUAwOThlYzVmNi1lNGNjLTQwMmItODU5Ny1iZTQ2MjA1MmM4ZTIiLCJpc3MiOiIwMDAwMDAwMy0wMDAwLTBmZjEtY2UwMC0wMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAiLCJuYmYiOiIxNjQ2MzMwNDAwIiwiZXhwIjoiMTY0NjM1MjAwMCIsImVuZHBvaW50dXJsIjoidGZHMFVZcW9jTGFSQlp3M0duWi9OUGhwaVBoUXNBTHlqc2g5bmMvOTEwRT0iLCJlbmRwb2ludHVybExlbmd0aCI6IjExNyIsImlzbG9vcGJhY2siOiJUcnVlIiwidmVyIjoiaGFzaGVkcHJvb2Z0b2tlbiIsInNpdGVpZCI6IlpHSTFNVEEyTkdRdE9USmxaQzAwWkROakxXRXlPR1l0TWpRNVl6WmlORFExTWpreiIsIm5hbWVpZCI6IjAjLmZ8bWVtYmVyc2hpcHx1cm4lM2FzcG8lM2Fhbm9uIzA0ZTRhMjdjODNlY2QzNmJmYjk1MTUzYTBlYmI0OWFlYTg2YjgxY2IwYzRiNjI4MmZiYjM1NDdiZTQ1OGEwZmUiLCJuaWkiOiJtaWNyb3NvZnQuc2hhcmVwb2ludCIsImlzdXNlciI6InRydWUiLCJjYWNoZWtleSI6IjBoLmZ8bWVtYmVyc2hpcHx1cm4lM2FzcG8lM2Fhbm9uIzA0ZTRhMjdjODNlY2QzNmJmYjk1MTUzYTBlYmI0OWFlYTg2YjgxY2IwYzRiNjI4MmZiYjM1NDdiZTQ1OGEwZmUiLCJzaGFyaW5naWQiOiJ4RGFRR084UVhFNlNQK0RXSjJnWExRIiwidHQiOiIwIiwidXNlUGVyc2lzdGVudENvb2tpZSI6IjIiLCJpcGFkZHIiOiI3NC45Ni4yMDIuMTY0In0.bHVQeUl3TFNnejFLTVMzeERRV2JRaGhmK1luUHNSNmtwVG82cFgwZytVbz0&cTag=%22c%3A%7B6E38AE58-4FCB-4D5A-BD21-0E11382E4924%7D%2C2%22&encodeFailures=1&width=717&height=213&srcWidth=717&srcHeight=213" data-inlineimagemanipulating="true"></span></p>
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<p class="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"> E-trademarks <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:e-trademarks-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">e-trademarks-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
on behalf of Steve Zemanick via E-trademarks <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 18, 2024 11:04 AM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Rick Bigelow via E-trademarks <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br clear="none">
<b>Cc:</b> Steve Zemanick <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:Steve@fourreasonslegal.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Steve@fourreasonslegal.com</a>><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> [E-trademarks] Challenge Examiner's Reliance on Non-U.S. Websites</span></p>
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<p><strong><span style="font-family:sans-serif;color:red;">WARNING:</span></strong><span style="color:red;">
</span>External email, do not click on links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender’s full email address and expect the attachments.</p>
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<div id="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910yqt30401" class="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910yqt8257437632"><p style="margin:0in;" class="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Happy weekend listmates,</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;" class="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;" class="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">I’m hoping someone has suggestions for challenging an Examiner’s reliance on third-party websites to demonstrate relatedness when the websites in question are for non-U.S. entities. It
seems to me that without a showing that these entities are conducting business in the U.S., the evidence is irrelevant or at least non-probative. Citations or examples of past submitted arguments are most welcome.</span></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;" class="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Thank you as always.</span></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;" class="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">Steve Zemanick</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;" class="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910xmsonormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">Four Reasons Legal</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;" class="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">8074 E 34<sup>th</sup> Ave
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;" class="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">Denver, CO 80238</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;" class="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"><a shape="rect" href="mailto:steve@fourreasonslegal.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener"><span style="color:#0563C1;">steve@fourreasonslegal.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;" class="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">720.937.6599</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;" class="ydp462f98a0yiv8056533910xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"></span></p>
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