<div dir="ltr"><div>DT>
Neither the courts nor the agencies are to be involved in legislating. <br></div><div>
<div><br></div><div>DT>
<span>My hope is that Congress does better on drafting legislation. And, if not, the courts bounce it back to them.</span></div><div><span><br></span></div>
</div><div>The opening and closing of Doreen's email give a pretty good illustration of how understanding the issue actually decided, understanding the relative decison-making expertise of agencies and courts, and avoiding magical thinking, are really important.<br></div><div></div><div><br></div><div>First, for hundreds of years, it's been understood that "judges do an<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font size="2">d must legislate"
<span>Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., </span>
<span class="gmail-reference-text"><i>Southern Pacific Co. v. Jensen</i>, 244 U.S. 205, 221 (1917) (Holmes, J., dissenting)</span>. Courts have been legislating since, oh, 1150 or so. Remember the origin of the term "common law"<sup> </sup>-- where parliament had not yet made law, courts had to have some law to apply, so they had to make it up, and rely on each other's decisions as law. In this context, I'm not advancing that as either good or bad -- it's just a fact. For purposes of this email, all I'm commenting is that "Neither the courts no</font></span>r the agencies are to be involved in legislating" is not a helpful framework for understanding how lawmakign in the United States works, and unhelpful to understanding what <i>Chevron</i> and <i>Loper Bright</i> are about.</div><div><br></div><div>Second, n<span>o matter how careful any legislature will be, there will always be some ambiguities, Justice Kagan gives a bullet list of concrete examples in her dissent </span>
<a href="https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/22-451_7m58.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/22-451_7m58.pdf</a> at pages 86-87. Judge Posner explained the problem in one of my favorite cases, <i>Hoctor v Dept of Agriculture, </i><a href="https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=17995305163137985182">https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=17995305163137985182</a> To wish away the need to resolve ambiguity is just magical thinking.</div><div><br></div><div>The inevitable existence of ambiguity creates the inevitable need that someone have authority to interpret to resolve those ambiguities (Posner's <i>Hoctor</i> decision is again helpful to understand). To make the decisions they have to make, both courts and agencies have to find an authoritative way to interpret those ambiguities.</div><div><div><br></div><div>The <i>Chevron/Loper Bright</i> question isn't about who "legislates." It's only about <i><b>who</b></i> interprets <i><b>ambiguities</b></i> in legislation. <i>Chevron </i>put that task of interpretation in the hands of a tribunal with the authority to investigate (rather than being institutionally confined to only the evidence the parties put before them after exercising whatever power and expense they have to develop evidence through their own investigation), with authority to consult with experts to vet the facts put before them by parties (agencies do, courts can't), the obligation to address contrary evidence (agencies must, courts don't have to, and as we see here, some judges don't), who are required to conduct their decisionmaking with a good deal of public participation (agencies are so required, as the Ninth Circuit explained in its decision in this very case <a href="https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=1275631280679738361">https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=1275631280679738361</a>, courts aren't), who typically make decisions in months instead of years, who have easy mechanisms for reconsideration that the agency is <i>required</i> to pay attention to (vs the <i>way </i>uphill climb of a petition for rehearing <i>en banc), </i>and whose interpretations have nationally uniform effect (rather than going up through thirteen circuits and waiting until the Supremes take it up as one of their 80 cases per year), by a tribunal with some indirect level of political accountability.
I think there shoudl be real bounds on that division of labor (see my brief at <a href="https://ssrn.com/abstract=4520183" target="_blank">https://ssrn.com/abstract=4520183</a>
) but in my view, there's expertise on both sides, and <i>Chevron</i> (as narrowed since 2010 or so) is darn close to the right division of labor.<br></div><div><br></div><div><i>Loper Bright </i>puts that decisionmaking <i>entirely</i> in the other set of hands. I think that's magical thinking, and a really unsophisticated understanding of how agencies and courts actually work and their relative institutional expertise. But that's just my opinion.<br></div><div><br></div><div>(There is one bad apple agency, where Congress created incentives for both the agency and agency executives to cheat. But that doesn't translate to the rest of the executive branch.)<br></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jun 29, 2024 at 12:00 PM Doreen Trujillo <<a href="mailto:DTrujillo@vlplawgroup.com">DTrujillo@vlplawgroup.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Neither the courts nor the agencies are to be involved in legislating. Only Congress is. Because Congress is answerable to the voters. Neither the courts nor agency personnel are. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="font-size:inherit">Agencies often change regs with each Administration. This is not optimal for the public.</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="font-size:inherit"><br>
</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="font-size:inherit"> I have spoken to agency personnel who said they know more than the president, so the president should follow them. But, the elected president gets to set the agenda, not the agencies. </span><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><span></span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span>Do you all know the facts of the case? If not, I suggest you take a look. </span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span>From the Scotus blog:</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span>"...</span><span style="font-family:Muli,sans-serif;font-size:16px;color:rgb(12,12,12)">The justices had</span> <a href="https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/buffington-v-mcdonough/" style="font-family:Muli,sans-serif;font-size:16px;background-image:none;background-position:0px 0px;background-size:auto;background-repeat:repeat;background-origin:padding-box;background-clip:border-box;margin:0px;outline:0px;text-decoration:none;font-weight:900;color:rgb(129,137,149)" target="_blank">rebuffed</a> <a href="https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/guedes-v-bureau-of-alcohol-tobacco-firearms-and-explosives/" style="font-family:Muli,sans-serif;font-size:16px;background-image:none;background-position:0px 0px;background-size:auto;background-repeat:repeat;background-origin:padding-box;background-clip:border-box;margin:0px;outline:0px;text-decoration:none;font-weight:900;color:rgb(129,137,149)" target="_blank">earlier</a> <span style="font-family:Muli,sans-serif;font-size:16px;color:rgb(12,12,12)">requests
(including by one of the same lawyers who argued one of the cases here) to consider overruling</span> <em style="font-family:Muli,sans-serif;font-size:16px;background-image:none;background-position:0px 0px;background-size:auto;background-repeat:repeat;background-origin:padding-box;background-clip:border-box;margin:0px;outline:0px;color:rgb(12,12,12)">Chevron</em> <span style="font-family:Muli,sans-serif;font-size:16px;color:rgb(12,12,12)">before
they agreed last year to take up a pair of challenges to a rule issued by the National Marine Fisheries Service. The agency had required the herring industry to pay for the costs, estimated at $710 per day, associated with carrying observers on board their
vessels to collect data about their catches and monitor for overfishing.</span><span>
<div style="font-size:16px;text-decoration:none;background:0px 0px;margin:15px 0px 22px;outline:0px;line-height:21px;font-family:Muli,sans-serif;color:rgb(12,12,12)">
The agency stopped the monitoring in 2023 because of a lack of funding. While the program was in effect, the agency reimbursed fishermen for the costs of the observers."</div>
</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span>The agency was requiring the industry to pay for their own government monitors to be on their boats. They were being paid more than the fishermen on the boats were, according to one of the plaintiffs.</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span>My hope is that Congress does better on drafting legislation. And, if not, the courts bounce it back to them. </span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div dir="ltr">Doreen</div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><br>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div id="m_-5303432412084092275ms-outlook-mobile-signature">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
Get <a href="https://aka.ms/o0ukef" target="_blank">Outlook for iOS</a></div>
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<div id="m_-5303432412084092275divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Patentcenter <<a href="mailto:patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> on behalf of Alex Butterman via Patentcenter <<a href="mailto:patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 28, 2024 10:25:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <<a href="mailto:e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>; David Boundy <<a href="mailto:DavidBoundyEsq@gmail.com" target="_blank">DavidBoundyEsq@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Alex Butterman <<a href="mailto:abutterman@dbllawyers.com" target="_blank">abutterman@dbllawyers.com</a>>; For patent practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>; For bug reports, feature requests, and tips and tricks about Patent Center. <<a href="mailto:patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>;
For discussion of intellectual property practice on topics that do not easily fall within other listservs such as Patentpractice and e-Trademarks and Designs. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <<a href="mailto:ip-transactions@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">ip-transactions@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Patentcenter] [EXT] Re: [E-trademarks] [Ip-transactions] [Patentpractice] Chevron Has been overruled by the S.Ct.</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(14,40,65)">So I guess the Supreme Court will be hearing a lot of these cases for years to come because they’ll have to keep deciding Circuit splits from the dozens of
Circuits and hundreds of judges interpreting and reinterpreting the same agency rules.
</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(14,40,65)"> </span></p>
<p><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Alex Butterman</span></b></p>
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<p><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> E-trademarks <<a href="mailto:e-trademarks-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">e-trademarks-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>David Boundy via E-trademarks<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 28, 2024 5:29 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Boundy <<a href="mailto:DavidBoundyEsq@gmail.com" target="_blank">DavidBoundyEsq@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> David Boundy <<a href="mailto:DavidBoundyEsq@gmail.com" target="_blank">DavidBoundyEsq@gmail.com</a>>; For patent practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>; Pete Sawicki <<a href="mailto:psawicki@wck.com" target="_blank">psawicki@wck.com</a>>; For bug reports, feature requests, and tips and tricks about
Patent Center. <<a href="mailto:patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>; For discussion of intellectual property practice on topics that do not easily fall within other listservs such as Patentpractice and e-Trademarks and Designs. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice.
<<a href="mailto:ip-transactions@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">ip-transactions@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>; for trademark practitioners <<a href="mailto:e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXT] Re: [E-trademarks] [Ip-transactions] [Patentcenter] [Patentpractice] Chevron Has been overruled by the S.Ct.</span></p>
</div>
<p> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p>Another big difference -- agencies are required to either accommodate minority interests, if feasible -- or explain why not. Courts aren't. Courts don't gateher enough input to do the fine tuning and interest-balancing that agencies
do through rulemaking.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Agencies are required to address Petitions for Rulemaking. Courts have to wait for case or controversy.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Again, that's the law as it applies to the rest of the executive branch. The administrative law ends at the front door on Dulaney St. Don't confuse the rest of the federal government with the cheating, self-interested %^&!@(#s in Alexandria.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>I predict that it won't take long to realize that courts aren't all that good at being policy-makers.</p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p>On Fri, Jun 28, 2024 at 5:17<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>PM David Boundy <<a href="mailto:DavidBoundyEsq@gmail.com" target="_blank">DavidBoundyEsq@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p>That's a perfect example of how agencies under <i>Chevron</i> have been more democratic than (I predict) courts will be under
<i>Loper Bright</i>. For an agency to issue such an interpretation, the agency had to observe notice-and-comment and all the other requirements of the Administrative Procedure Act, and all those other laws that you see at the end of almost every NPRM, and
it could only go forward with at least tacit blessing of the President. Most regs of that form have to go through multiple rounds, each modified to meet public concern, and it's only after multiple rounds of tuning that they issue as final rules.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>In contrast, when courts interpret -- and they're just as capable of absurdity -- as a practical matter, there's no public participation at district court level, and the only way to have influence at either Circuit Court or Supreme Court
is formal amicus brief, which is out of reach for almost everyone.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Be careful what you wish for, and be careful to compare apples to apples.</p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p>On Fri, Jun 28, 2024 at 5:07<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>PM Suzannah K. Sundby <<a href="mailto:suzannah@canadylortz.com" target="_blank">suzannah@canadylortz.com</a>> wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Imho, the decision reduces the risk of Govt tyranny… Federal Agencies interpreting statutory law in an absurd way that bypasses Congress and/or turns the purpose of a statute
on its head… e.g., Title IX being interpreted to force schools to allow biological males in female sports.
</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ssundby/" target="_blank"><span style="color:black;text-decoration:none">Suzannah
K. Sundby</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif">
<b><span style="color:rgb(0,0,204)">|</span></b> Partner</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:4pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(0,0,204)"><a href="http://www.canadylortz.com/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,204);text-decoration:none">canady
+ lortz</span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,204);text-decoration:none">
<span style="font-variant:small-caps">LLP</span></span></a></span></p>
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<p><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Ip-transactions <<a href="mailto:ip-transactions-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">ip-transactions-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>David Boundy via Ip-transactions<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 28, 2024 12:57 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> For bug reports, feature requests, and tips and tricks about Patent Center. <<a href="mailto:patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>; For patent practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal
advice. <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>; for trademark practitioners <<a href="mailto:e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>; listserv
for IP transactions practitioners <<a href="mailto:ip-transactions@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">ip-transactions@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> David Boundy <<a href="mailto:DavidBoundyEsq@gmail.com" target="_blank">DavidBoundyEsq@gmail.com</a>>; Pete Sawicki <<a href="mailto:psawicki@wck.com" target="_blank">psawicki@wck.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ip-transactions] [Patentcenter] [Patentpractice] Chevron Has been overruled by the S.Ct.</span></p>
</div>
<p> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p>Whew, that was a long read.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>I EMPHATICALLY disagree that "This decision is a start towards a more democratic government!!" There are things to be said on both sides, but that statement is pure ignorance. Justice Kagan sums it up -- "A rule of judicial
humility gives way to a rule of judicial hubris." Executive branch bureaucrats have some political accountability, and work from records that are thousands to hundreds of thousands of pages. Judges don't. (Yesterday, Justice Alito in
<i>Moyle</i> patted himself on the back for mastering a record of 1300 pages and a couple hours of oral argument. If an agency had made a major decision on such a thin record, it'd be arbitrary and capricious.)</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>On balance, I think Justice Kagan looked more carefully at the statutory text and history, looked at a lot more of the practical consequences, thought more carefully, and exercised more judgment. Kagan notes how Chevron has
narrowed since its high-water mark in the late 1990s -- I agree, back then, it was a real problem. But it self-corrected. (Her explanation is darn close to my brief
<a href="https://ssrn.com/abstract=4520183" target="_blank">
https://ssrn.com/abstract=4520183</a> ) I suggest reading her dissent (starting at page 82) first, then read the majority -- the majority's willful blindness is pretty apparent if you read Kagan first. (I did it the conventional way, but I was deeply steeped
in the case, so I could see my "magical thinking" flashers going off as I read Roberts. If you're not an administrative law expert, read Kagan first.)</p>
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<div>
<p> </p>
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<div>
<p>There are two classes to whom <i>Loper Bright </i>
will be genuinely beneficial.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>First, litigators. Justice Roberts has really underestimated the amount of uncertainty and re-litigation this is going to bring.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
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<p>Second, patent and trademark lawyers. The Patent Office is a special case -- Congress gave the PTO and its senior executives motivations to cheat that don't apply to any other part of the executive branch. We need to remember
that the level of disrespect the PTO shows to the law is not pervasive throughout the government. No other agency has the same incentives to tell the law to go to hell.</p>
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<p>A couple people have asked me whether I think this affects the
<i>Chestek</i> case. Maybe way at the margins, but I don't see anything direct.</p>
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<p>On Fri, Jun 28, 2024 at 11:17<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>AM Pete Sawicki via Patentcenter <<a href="mailto:patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> wrote:</p>
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<p>This decision is a start towards a more democratic government!!<br clear="all">
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<p style="margin-bottom:0in"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Best Regards,</span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0in"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Z. Peter Sawicki</span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0in"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p>
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<p><br>
Westman, Champlin and Koehler, P.A.<br>
Suite 1100<br>
121 South Eighth Street<br>
Minneapolis, MN 55402</p>
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<p>Direct Dial: 612-330-0581</p>
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<p>Cell: 612-418-9989</p>
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<p>Fax: 612-334-3312</p>
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<p>Email: <a href="mailto:psawicki@wck.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">psawicki@wck.com</span></a></p>
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<p>Website: <a href="http://www.wck.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">www.wck.com</span></a></p>
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<p>Skype: Z.Peter.Sawicki</p>
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<p>Linkedin: <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/zpetersawicki" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">www.linkedin.com/in/zpetersawicki</span></a></p>
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<p> <span style="font-size:13.5pt"><img id="m_-5303432412084092275x__x0000_i1033" src="https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4wG8mbA9x-8DoNksFnCpNiUbIda5kHOLJk-8yRzSXtzhx7RdcbzZqFzCZK4PJNuYk1Sev0SZWZw4mKj" style="width: 2.0833in; height: 0.625in;" width="200" height="60" border="0"></span></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:10pt">WARNING: The information contained in this transmission may be privileged or confidential. It is intended only for the above identified recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, please forward
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<p>On Fri, Jun 28, 2024 at 10:13<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>AM Suzannah K. Sundby via Patentcenter <<a href="mailto:patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> wrote:</p>
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<p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Well, for example, with all their ‘interpretations’ that they claim give then the authority to enact, e.g., their proposed terminal disclaimer rules, IDS rules, etc., we can send
comments to their proposed rulemaking and simply state that the USPTO has no authority to do so and slap a copy SCOTUS’ decision thereto the comment letter.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ssundby/" target="_blank"><span style="color:black;text-decoration:none">Suzannah
K. Sundby</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif">
<b><span style="color:rgb(0,0,204)">|</span></b> Partner</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:4pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(0,0,204)"><a href="http://www.canadylortz.com/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,204);text-decoration:none">canady
+ lortz</span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,204);text-decoration:none">
<span style="font-variant:small-caps">LLP</span></span></a></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif">1050 30th Street, NW</span></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif" lang="DE">F: 202.540.8020</span></p>
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<p><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Patentcenter <<a href="mailto:patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dan Feigelson via Patentcenter<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 28, 2024 10:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> For bug reports, feature requests, and tips and tricks about Patent Center. <<a href="mailto:patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dan Feigelson <<a href="mailto:djf@iliplaw.com" target="_blank">djf@iliplaw.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Patentcenter] [Patentpractice] Chevron Has been overruled by the S.Ct.</span></p>
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<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt"><img id="m_-5303432412084092275x__x0000_i1030" src="https://gcfagjf.r.bh.d.sendibt3.com/tr/op/D86V5CClDi2PHb6MN3eIp2KTHhhWweL0CTEmyXrvsGNhZ72XNcSSM62OMHlNHP8XrOGkcq9XFY6bQKa1VDFcF4PQuPzkJlmHcgnoK9_1SHWa4hbzIaRsT9sVMl092cf5H6NwlQ4RoCMbtxcKjwLRrCkb0LyrVAzm4SZrqh8Es_p-vxyOYZ0kq-HYRdmmPkLryoofXEiB5I3z0PmxAcXMYT5Bg2vCtb6V_g" style="width: 0.0083in; height: 0.0083in;" width="1" height="1" border="0"></span></p>
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<p>My response too.</p>
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<p>Question is, how does this affect the PTO's current cheating?</p>
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<p>And how does it affect Pam Chestek's cert petition?</p>
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<p> </p>
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<p>DJF</p>
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<p>On Fri, Jun 28, 2024 at 5:54<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>PM Suzannah K. Sundby via Patentcenter <<a href="mailto:patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> wrote:</p>
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<p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">YAHOO!</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="https://gcfagjf.r.bh.d.sendibt3.com/tr/cl/1cN6ac6Up__LhkRGoN1yCWTV3E3jqrrwtsmH3WKQwAGkcleksjsFN2SnBMg2jdL6H5NX8xB5povUqXUtthrBTvnUeMADmC8pLiTqA7rguloQOZDfDYrYvhGdZocnYkprjzdKK91DHW3cdt9AJouTfPWZ-x34r5Vc3E7cBwsR7zy38oycP-3oN5NKsKUlD8hd-TGXbCY3TqOqg_YUJQoevzQIjP2HydKQ_ppVylAeUmPuupooTotm-olSN_R34syVzusOFX2rx8_QiAMBwHj-_rrBmXoYfTw0StEtxabxTI4" target="_blank"><span style="color:black;text-decoration:none">Suzannah
K. Sundby</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif">
<b><span style="color:rgb(0,0,204)">|</span></b> Partner</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:4pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(0,0,204)"><a href="https://gcfagjf.r.bh.d.sendibt3.com/tr/cl/tNfNWdfClsQXsbnKGPnDX85oAmCPji4f4b79synl_SeYTGCfmnKvYUKUb1r4YXuJ_5_vydCL5-o0cWIPEsRhHpbnvdxa5r2mhf8AXt6T9yFoiTzPepuUTtwBK6qr3mPi2S7dp31zh-H59EDIY9PevWcbmhGn75qBDxJuA5igAtN9WrjM-kKgQcKvtRKmutoaOdB6JcQz8A1ZNzxPgb51d0tF_xY54RwmBp-iEqs4y_1RyO5K6dj9tYyu1VpxlIcSkXtDmftK2uTykjrvIR_eidealhM" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,204);text-decoration:none">canady
+ lortz</span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,204);text-decoration:none">
<span style="font-variant:small-caps">LLP</span></span></a></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif">1050 30th Street, NW</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif">Washington, DC 20007</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:4pt"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif" lang="DE">T: 202.486.8020</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif" lang="DE">F: 202.540.8020</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:4pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(0,0,204)"><a href="mailto:suzannah@canadylortz.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,204);text-decoration:none" lang="DE">suzannah@canadylortz.com</span></a></span></p>
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this message or any part. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete all copies of the message.</span></p>
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<p><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Patentcenter <<a href="mailto:patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>David Boundy via Patentcenter<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 28, 2024 10:30 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> For patent practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> David Boundy <<a href="mailto:PatentProcedure@gmail.com" target="_blank">PatentProcedure@gmail.com</a>>;
<a href="mailto:ip-transactions@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">ip-transactions@oppedahl-lists.com</a>; users of Patentcenter <<a href="mailto:patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>; Oppedahl lists <<a href="mailto:E-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">E-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Patentcenter] [Patentpractice] Chevron Has been overruled by the S.Ct.</span></p>
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<p> </p>
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<p><a href="https://gcfagjf.r.bh.d.sendibt3.com/tr/cl/FHrrA7yfUxcL58mYAjyAssRu45Hnwsrx-lDymX1GNFmSGPtWbNyBHzcTfDXSkiRvfjs2bZhhO_IixXinMVlDL4zAFZW7RZYcy0NEZhtStfNyw_5FG7AFlJB_xc7zB2ov8c9joIPrZ0j5q59ELG16T1Rz-1ZdGLzCnErXT4tC8d6b7HG1IrdYJh2cMl9BKyxDSxoqzAnFGA4BO1ubjvmGGtFOfGJBLOF2LvGCqJJO5l7Lcg4L6nlIlkDgOvi0Tjm-2BEink6t6U-rz5t9STw42FExGJnw2_DTzu8e4H7kc7uLrb0gZPORDWT1yCMXMWAX0JxBDc8Ldt4" target="_blank">https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/22-451_7m58.pdf</a></p>
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<p> </p>
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<p>On Fri, Jun 28, 2024 at 10:24<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>AM Richard Straussman via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
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<p style="margin-bottom:12pt">-- <br>
<b>Richard Straussman<br>
Senior Counsel<br>
Registered Patent Attorney<br>
</b>Member NY, NJ & CT Bars<br>
<b>. . . . . . . . . . . . . .</b> <br>
<b>Weitzman Law Offices, LLC</b><br>
<b>Intellectual Property Law</b><br>
425 Eagle Rock Avenue, Suite 401 (PLEASE NOTE THE SUITE CHANGE)<br>
Roseland, NJ 07068<br>
<b>direct line</b> 973.403.9943<br>
<b>main</b> 973.403.9940<br>
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<b>e-mail</b> <a href="mailto:rstraussman@weitzmanip.com" target="_blank">rstraussman@weitzmanip.com</a><br>
<br>
<b><a href="https://gcfagjf.r.bh.d.sendibt3.com/tr/cl/_3Gd9a1dtD_BBYoaMCl_OxwRep5SM8HU1vvGd2u-PiRPS2rmOb40eIZXLKHYAxCZR-abDY0TOxa9yH7j-oFL4SUbbU6qUpDAZPDy2FfEjfe6nUMUC01-SN7K1sV5ypXEc0x0EzfwG7TMSRsViN5N7lD2eXcDuhrvEEGjn3u5avqE_eyQqgz5ZB0ybIv2xZyrg-Cxe4ofgRjzPigk07vAmiuUS2KYCnwSm_GEb5rCqXTRMCFNQl30T9KNQH0-zpW5EqfeedpMdojSrO4ohfeyLxsZ6Q" target="_blank">http://www.weitzmanip.com</a></b></p>
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<p>-- <br>
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646.472.9737</a></span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:7.5pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Open Sans",sans-serif;color:rgb(102,102,102)">Cambridge Technology Law LLC</span></b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Open Sans",sans-serif;color:rgb(102,102,102)"><br>
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<p>mailing address</p>
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<p>Newton MA 02459</p>
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<p style="margin:0in;text-align:start"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(96,110,154)">David Boundy </span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(124,134,154)">| Partner <span style="background:white">| </span>Potomac Law
Group, PLLC</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;text-align:start"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(124,134,154)">P.O. Box 590638, Newton, MA 02459</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(124,134,154)">Tel (646) 472-9737 </span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:gray">|</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(124,134,154)"> Fax:
(202) 318-7707</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><u><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(12,100,192)"><a href="mailto:dboundy@potomaclaw.com" title="mailto:dboundy@potomaclaw.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(254,70,165)">dboundy@potomaclaw.com</span></a></span></u><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(12,100,192)"> </span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(124,134,154)">| <u><a href="http://www.potomaclaw.com" title="http://www.potomaclaw.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(12,100,192)">www.potomaclaw.com</span></a></u></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><span style="font-size:10pt"><a href="http://ssrn.com/author=2936470" target="_blank">Articles at http://ssrn.com/author=2936470</a><a href="https://www.keynect.us/requestCardAccess/USA500DBOUN?" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext"><br>
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<p style="margin:0in;text-align:start"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(96,110,154)">David Boundy </span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(124,134,154)">| Partner <span style="background:white">| </span>Potomac Law
Group, PLLC</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(50,49,48)"></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;text-align:start"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(124,134,154)">P.O. Box 590638, Newton, MA 02459</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(50,49,48)"></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(124,134,154)">Tel (646) 472-9737 </span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:gray">|</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(124,134,154)"> Fax:
(202) 318-7707</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><u><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(12,100,192)"><a href="mailto:dboundy@potomaclaw.com" title="mailto:dboundy@potomaclaw.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(254,70,165)">dboundy@potomaclaw.com</span></a></span></u><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(12,100,192)"> </span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(124,134,154)">| <u><a href="http://www.potomaclaw.com" title="http://www.potomaclaw.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(12,100,192)">www.potomaclaw.com</span></a></u></span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(124,134,154)"></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><span style="font-size:10pt"><a href="http://ssrn.com/author=2936470" target="_blank">Articles at http://ssrn.com/author=2936470</a><a href="https://www.keynect.us/requestCardAccess/USA500DBOUN?" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext"><br>
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<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:7.5pt;margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Open Sans",sans-serif;color:rgb(102,127,160)"><a href="https://www.iam-media.com/strategy300/individuals/david-boundy" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(102,127,160);text-decoration:none"><img id="m_-5303432412084092275x__x0000_i1025" src="https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4wRMgBgcdZCqTw68Gg6ihENvW6_y8dGBqYvnJwiaIyu6LO5a7IJ-cljKsueIE5uxXbT6s9MN5hE2lGU" style="width: 0.7583in; height: 0.9583in;" width="73" height="92" border="0"></span><span style="color:rgb(102,127,160);text-decoration:none">
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<p style="margin:0in;text-align:start"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(96,110,154)">David Boundy </span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(124,134,154)">| Partner <span style="background:white">| </span>Potomac Law
Group, PLLC</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(50,49,48)"></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;text-align:start"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(124,134,154)">P.O. Box 590638, Newton, MA 02459</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(50,49,48)"></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(124,134,154)">Tel (646) 472-9737 </span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:gray">|</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(124,134,154)"> Fax:
(202) 318-7707</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><u><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(12,100,192)"><a href="mailto:dboundy@potomaclaw.com" title="mailto:dboundy@potomaclaw.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(254,70,165)">dboundy@potomaclaw.com</span></a></span></u><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(12,100,192)"> </span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(124,134,154)">| <u><a href="http://www.potomaclaw.com" title="http://www.potomaclaw.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(12,100,192)">www.potomaclaw.com</span></a></u></span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(124,134,154)"></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><span style="font-size:10pt"><a href="http://ssrn.com/author=2936470" target="_blank">Articles at http://ssrn.com/author=2936470</a><a href="https://www.keynect.us/requestCardAccess/USA500DBOUN?" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext"><br>
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<p style="margin:0in"><span style="font-size:10pt"><a href="https://www.keynect.us/requestCardAccess/USA500DBOUN?" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext">Click here to add me to your contacts.</span></a></span></p>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><span><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><span><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div><span><span><span><span><span><p style="margin:0px 0px 10px;color:rgb(102,127,160);font-family:"Open Sans",sans-serif,Arial;font-size:12px"><a border="0" href="https://www.iam-media.com/strategy300/individuals/david-boundy" style="color:rgb(102,127,160);text-decoration:none;outline:none;background:transparent 0px 0px" target="_blank"><img alt="" src="https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4wRMgBgcdZCqTw68Gg6ihENvW6_y8dGBqYvnJwiaIyu6LO5a7IJ-cljKsueIE5uxXbT6s9MN5hE2lGU" width="73" height="92"> <br></a></p></span></span></span></span></span><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(50,49,48);font-weight:normal;text-align:start;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:15px">
<b><span style="margin:0px;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(96,110,154)">David Boundy </span></b><span style="margin:0px;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(124,134,154)">| Partner </span><span style="margin:0px;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(124,134,154)"><span style="margin:0px;background-color:white;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">|</span><span style="margin:0px;background-color:white"><span style="margin:0px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"> </span></span></span><span style="margin:0px;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(124,134,154)">Potomac Law
Group, PLLC</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(50,49,48);font-weight:normal;text-align:start;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:15px">
<span style="margin:0px;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(124,134,154)">P.O. Box 590638, Newton, MA 02459</span></p>
<div style="margin:0px;font-family:Tahoma,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px;color:black;text-align:left">
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<span style="margin:0px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:10pt"></span></p>
<font style="font-size:13.3333px;color:black;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,Helvetica,EmojiFont,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji",NotoColorEmoji,"Segoe UI Symbol","Android Emoji",EmojiSymbols"><span style="margin:0px"></span></font>
<p style="margin:0px;color:rgb(124,134,154);font-size:13px;font-family:Helvetica,serif,EmojiFont">
<span style="margin:0px;font-size:10pt"></span><span style="margin:0px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:12pt"><font size="2" face="Helvetica" color="#7C869A"><span style="margin:0px"><span style="margin:0px;font-size:10pt"><span style="margin:0px">Tel
(646)</span><span style="margin:0px"> 472-9737</span></span><span style="margin:0px;font-size:10pt"> </span></span></font><font size="2" face="Helvetica" color="gray"><span style="margin:0px;font-size:10pt">|</span></font><font size="2" face="Helvetica" color="#7C869A"><span style="margin:0px;font-size:10pt"> Fax:
(202) 318-7707</span></font></span></p>
<p style="margin:0px;color:rgb(124,134,154);font-size:13px;font-family:Helvetica,serif,EmojiFont">
<span style="margin:0px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:12pt"><span style="margin:0px;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(12,100,192)"><u><a href="mailto:dboundy@potomaclaw.com" title="mailto:dboundy@potomaclaw.com" style="color:rgb(254,70,165)" target="_blank">dboundy@potomaclaw.com</a></u> </span></span><span style="margin:0px;color:gray"><span style="margin:0px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:12pt"><u><span style="margin:0px;font-size:10pt"></span></u></span></span><span style="margin:0px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:10pt">| </span><u style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><a href="http://www.potomaclaw.com" rel="noopener noreferrer" title="http://www.potomaclaw.com/" style="margin:0px" target="_blank"><span style="margin:0px;color:rgb(12,100,192)">www.potomaclaw.com</span></a></u></p><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><font size="2">
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">
</span><a href="http://ssrn.com/author=2936470" target="_blank">Articles at http://ssrn.com/author=2936470</a><a href="https://www.keynect.us/requestCardAccess/USA500DBOUN?" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext"><br></span></a></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><a href="https://www.keynect.us/requestCardAccess/USA500DBOUN?" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext">Click here to add me to your
contacts.</span></a></p></font></span></span></span></span></span><p style="margin:0px 0px 10px;color:rgb(102,102,102);font-family:"Open Sans",sans-serif,Arial;font-size:14px"><span style="font-weight:700"></span></p></span></span><font size="1"><span style="line-height:150%;font-family:"Times New Roman""></span></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></span><font size="1"><span style="line-height:150%;font-family:"Times New Roman""></span></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></span><span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"></span></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>