<div dir="ltr">I took French for twelve years, and vetements would immediately mean "clothing" to me. ( I like Maria E don't agree with the stop and translate theory for foreign equivalents - If you know the language, the meaning is immediate) Like LA DOLCE VITA<div><br></div><div>I also know the word veuve but would not have immediately translated that for champagne or wine because it doesn't seem to have a descriptive significance for the goods. I will be interested to see how SCOTUS resolves the circuit split on this doctrine. </div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Sep 12, 2025 at 11:49\u202fAM Matt Schneller via E-trademarks <<a href="mailto:e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com">e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Agree with Pam. </div><div><br></div><div>And, while it's not <i>quite </i>a cognate due to the Norman misplacement of a consonant (who can fuss with spelling amidst all that pillaging?), the English "vestments" just means, more or less, "clothes (for priests)." That seems relevant to how generally understood the word would be, too.</div><div> </div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><font color="#000000">Matt Schneller</font><div><font color="#000000">Partner<br></font><div><font color="#000000">TM TKO, LLC</font></div><div><font color="#000000">206-679-1895</font></div></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Sep 12, 2025 at 10:44\u202fAM Pamela Chestek via E-trademarks <<a href="mailto:e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">But I expect those who took nothing more than first year French see "vetements" and immediately know it means "clothing." Highly descriptive or generic IMO, since a significant part of the population has passing famiilarity with French.<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Pam Chestek</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Sep 11, 2025, 9:57\u202fPM Jessica R. Friedman via E-trademarks <<a href="mailto:e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(10,47,65)">I studied French for about ten years and I don\u2019t remember the word VEUVE either (nor do I like champagne, but I guess that\u2019s beside the point).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(10,47,65)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,51,102)">Jessica R. Friedman</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(10,47,65)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,51,102)">Attorney at Law</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(10,47,65)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><b><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">E-trademarks <<a href="mailto:e-trademarks-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">e-trademarks-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> on behalf of Diane Gardner via E-trademarks <<a href="mailto:e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, September 11, 2025 at 2:45</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">\u202f</span><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">PM<br>
<b>To: </b>For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <<a href="mailto:e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>Diane Gardner <<a href="mailto:diane@mmip.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">diane@mmip.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [E-trademarks] VETEMENTS case going up to SCOTUS<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(21,5,115)">Just weighing in a bit:</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(21,5,115)"> </span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(21,5,115)">I do not speak French fluently, but I studied French for 6 years and once knew it well enough to tutor the subject. I don\u2019t recall \u201cveuve\u201d being a word in my
immediate French vocabulary.</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(21,5,115)"> </span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(21,5,115)">On the other hand, the actual spelling of the French term for clothing is \u201cvêtements.\u201d If any of you cannot see the special character present in this post, there
is a circumflex (hat) accent over the first \u201ce.\u201d For those who are at least minimally familiar with the French language, you will know that the circumflex often appears in words in which the \u201cs\u201d that would normally follow the vowel in related Romance language
words is not present. Vêtements (with or without the accent present) = vestments in my mind. Same as hôpital = hospital, île = isle, pâte = paste,</span><span style="font-size:12pt">
</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(21,5,115)">côte = coast, forêt = forest, etc.</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:navy">Kind regards,</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Handwriting";color:navy">Diane L. Gardner</span></i></b><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:navy">Reg. No. 36,518</span></i></b><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(21,5,115)"> </span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> E-trademarks <<a href="mailto:e-trademarks-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">e-trademarks-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ramon G. Vela Cordova via E-trademarks<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 11, 2025 2:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <<a href="mailto:e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Ramon G. Vela Cordova <<a href="mailto:rvela@velacordova.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">rvela@velacordova.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [E-trademarks] VETEMENTS case going up to SCOTUS</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">I don\u2019t speak French, but at least here in Puerto Rico, \u201cla Viuda\u201d is a very common name for Veuve Clicquot champagne. As in, \u201cwhat should we order, la Viuda?\u201d Presumably, this is because at least some people
understand that \u201cveuve\u201d means \u201cviuda\u201d in Spanish. Also, to me at least, the mental connection between \u201cvetements\u201d in French and \u201cvestimenta\u201d in Spanish is no more obvious than the connection between \u201cveuve\u201d in French and \u201cviuda\u201d in Spanish.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">Best regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">Ramón<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">On Sep 10, 2025, at 2:38</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">\u202f</span><span style="font-size:12pt">PM, Welch, John L. via E-trademarks <<a href="mailto:e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The CAFC said this:</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">\u201c[T]he word in question [VETEMENTS] is a simple and common word\u2014the word for clothing. On the other hand, \u201cwidow\u201d requires a more advanced vocabulary. This, therefore, distinguishes
this case from the aspect of<span> </span><i>Palm Bay<span> </span></i>that was premised on \u201can appreciable number of purchasers [being] unlikely to be aware that VEUVE means \u2018widow\u2019\u201d in French, and
therefore \u201cunlikely to translate the marks into English.\u201d<i>Palm Bay</i>, 396 F.3d at 1377 (emphasis omitted) (citation omitted).\u201d</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Do we have any French speakers out there? Is \u201cveuve\u201d an obscure word?</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">PS:<span> </span><i>Palm Bay</i><span> </span>was a likelihood of confusion case [not a genericness (or descriptiveness)
case] in which the mark VEUVE ROYALE was found to be confusingly similar to VEUVE CLIQUOT for wine, but THE WIDOW was not confusingly similar, since consumers would not translate VEUVE as WIDOW..</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">JLW</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Garamond,serif">John L. Welch</span></b><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Senior Counsel</span></b><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">E-trademarks
<<a href="mailto:e-trademarks-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">e-trademarks-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><span> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span> </span></b>Jessica R. Friedman via E-trademarks<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Wednesday, September 10, 2025 11:18 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span> </span>For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <<a href="mailto:e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">e-trademarks@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b><span> </span>Jessica R. Friedman <<a href="mailto:jrfriedman@litproplaw.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">jrfriedman@litproplaw.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span> </span>[E-trademarks] VETEMENTS case going up to SCOTUS</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(10,47,65)"><a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/04/world/europe/vetements-trademark-lawsuit.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/04/world/europe/vetements-trademark-lawsuit.html</a><span> </span>raises
a few questions for me:</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<li style="color:rgb(10,47,65);margin-top:0in;margin-bottom:0in">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">The NY Times reporter analogizes the registration of VEUVE CLIQUOT, which means \u201cwidow cliquot\u201d and refers to the company matriarch, for champagne, to the registration of VETEMENTS, which in French means clothing,
for clothing. Is that an analogy the applicant has actually made, or is this just the usual ignorance of NY Times articles when it comes to IP?</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></li></ol>
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<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">The PTO refused registration on the ground that the mark is merely descriptive and that it appears to be generic. How can it be both?</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></li></ol>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(10,47,65)"> </span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<li style="color:rgb(10,47,65);margin-top:0in;margin-bottom:0in">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">The applicant\u2019s response to the OA included the argument that \u201cvetements\u201d referred only to clothing as a category, while they are applying to register specific items of clothing:</span><span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:windowtext"> </span></span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:windowtext">\u201c</span><i><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Although
the word \u201cclothing\u201d may have a relationship to an overall category of products, it is not the descriptive (nor generic) term for any specific item. A purchaser would not say they want to \u201cbuy a clothing.\u201d Further, when the mark VETEMENTS is encountered an
observer would first have to undertake translation of the word, and then draw a relationship to a specific item such as a sweatshirt\u201d.</span></i><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">I understand that we have to try any and every credible argument,
but that one doesn\u2019t strike me as falling into that category.</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></li></ol>
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</a><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,51,102)">Jessica R. Friedman</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p><a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/300+East+59+Street,+Ste.+2406+%0D%0A+%0D%0A+%0D%0A+New+York,+NY+10022?entry=gmail&source=g" target="_blank">
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