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<p>Yes this is an example of how filers might go down a wrong path.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>It is one thing for the USPTO to say "so far as we are concerned,
sure we will water down the oath-or-declaration obligation to
whatever extent is needed to lull people into thinking that they
don't have to think about this."</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>It is completely another thing to realize that if we fire it off
to the client, and they say they are comfortable with those words
on the page, and if we then change the words on the page, and what
we file is not the same document the client approved, then the
client might sue us later. Whatever we changed might turn out to
be a real or perceived problem.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>One needs to carefully avoid taking legal advice from the USPTO.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/18/2024 1:16 PM, Scott Nielson via
Patentcenter wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:SJ0PR11MB657591EFBCD25763E515E608B0712@SJ0PR11MB6575.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
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<div class="elementToProof"
style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
The MPEP says that as long as the changes don't add new matter,
then you don't need a new declaration.</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-right: 0px; margin-left: 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left: 3px solid rgb(200, 200, 200);">
<div class="elementToProof"><span
style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">37
CFR 1.52(c) states that “[i]nterlineation, erasure,
cancellation, or other alteration of the application papers
may be made before or after the signing of the inventor's
oath or declaration referring to those application papers,
provided that the statements in the inventor's oath or
declaration pursuant to § 1.63 remain applicable to those
application papers. A substitute specification (§ 1.125) may
be required if the application papers do not comply with
paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section.”</span></div>
<div class="elementToProof"><span
style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</span></div>
<div class="elementToProof"><span
style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">An
inventor is not required to re-execute a new inventor’s oath
or declaration after alteration of the application papers
provided that the changes are minor, for example, correction
of typographical errors, grammatical problems, and
clarifying sentences. If the changes would amount to the
introduction of new matter had the change been made to a
filed application, however, then the inventor should execute
a new oath or declaration after reviewing the amended
application. The rule permits alterations to the
specification without the inventor re-executing an oath or
declaration only where the statements in the executed
declaration remain applicable. Additionally, an inventor
must before executing the oath or declaration (i) review and
understand the contents of the application; and (ii) be
aware of their duty of disclosure. See 37 CFR 1.63(c). If
the changes made to the specification before an application
is filed result in substantial alterations to the
application, then an inventor may not understand the
contents of the application or be aware of their duty to
disclose information relating to the substantial alteration.</span></div>
</blockquote>
<div class="elementToProof"
style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
MPEP 602.08(b).</div>
<div class="elementToProof"
style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div id="Signature">
<p
style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span
style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, serif; color: rgb(31, 56, 100);"><b>Scott
Nielson</b></span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span
style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, serif; color: black;">801-660-4400</span></p>
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt"
face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b>
Patentcenter <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com"><patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com></a>
on behalf of Benjamin Keim via Patentcenter
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com"><patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 18, 2024 1:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> For bug reports, feature requests, and tips and
tricks about Patent Center.
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com"><patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Benjamin Keim <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ben@newportip.com"><ben@newportip.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Patentcenter] Declarations and DOCX filing</font>
<div> </div>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">For
those applications that are filed in DOCX, it bothers me
that the document reviewed by the inventors when they
decide to sign the declaration is not the document that is
saved in Patent Center. </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">For
PDF filings we would send the inventors the PDF document
and the declaration form. They would choose to sign the
declaration if they agreed what was in the PDF
specification and drawings was their invention. We would
upload the documents reviewed by the inventors and they
would be saved in the USPTO’s electronic system. I suppose
it wasn’t actually the documents reviewed by the inventors
because the PDFs were changed by flattening each page to a
TIFF image and reassembling as a PDF. But all the ink on
the page would be the same but for some halftoning
degradation.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">The
USPTO declaration form PTO/AIA/01 for declarations
included with the initial filing has the language “As the
below named inventor, I hereby declare that: This
declaration is directed to: The attached application.”
What the inventor considers as the “attached application”
may be different than what becomes the record copy in
Patent Center. Does this open up the inventors to risk of
fine or imprisonment (or both) if the USPTO systems change
something significant in the DOCX file?</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I’m
thinking about creating a declaration form that lists the
file name, file size, and SHA-512 hash of the documents
(spec and drawings) provided to the inventors. My
intention for this would be to unambiguously link the
documents reviewed by the inventors with their statements
made in the declaration.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">-Ben</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Benjamin
A. Keim</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">(206)
920-9038</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><u><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#0563C1"><a
href="mailto:ben@newportip.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">ben@newportip.com</span></a></span></u><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span></p>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<div>
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style="border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Patentcenter
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com"><patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Carl Oppedahl via Patentcenter<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 18, 2024 9:01 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> For bug reports, feature requests, and tips
and tricks about Patent Center.
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com"><patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Carl Oppedahl <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:carl@oppedahl.com"><carl@oppedahl.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Patentcenter] Faxes to the PTO -
some legacy things do work</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p>Yeah, I imagine most practitioners do always file the
declaration with the application. I imagine I am quite out
of the ordinary, having to hand in inventors' declarations
later.</p>
<p>What happens to me is, I keep fiddling with the text of the
patent application, particularly the claims, with multiple
version changes leading up to the moment, late in the day on
the last possible day, that I click "submit" and e-file it
at the patent office.</p>
<p>The inventor declaration of course is tied to the notion
that the signer has reviewed the patent application that is
going to be filed, and agrees that he or she is an inventor
thereof. But in my case, given that the exact wording of
the application kept wriggling around until the very end,
there is no way the inventor could be expected to sign such
a thing until after the wriggling had ceased. Which means,
no way could the inventor even sign the declaration until
chronologically after the filing of the application had
taken place.</p>
<p>Yet another thing that happens to me is, the instructions
come in from foreign instructing counsel to please get
something filed at the USPTO. So I prepare inventor
declarations and send them to instructing counsel. The
signed declarations do not arrive until some days later,
long after the US patent application got filed. Which
means, no way could I managed to file the declaration with
the application.</p>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">On 1/18/2024 8:49 AM, Randall Svihla
via Patentcenter wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">We
always file the declaration with the application.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Patentcenter
<a
href="mailto:patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Roger Browdy via Patentcenter<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 18, 2024 10:34 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> For bug reports, feature requests, and
tips and tricks about Patent Center.
<a href="mailto:patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Roger Browdy <a
href="mailto:RLBrowdy@browdyneimark.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><RLBrowdy@browdyneimark.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Patentcenter] Faxes to the PTO
- some legacy things do work</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I
don’t think it is a joke. I bet there was a huge volume
of applications filed Tuesday night to avoid the DOCX
tax. We had to file one late at night and had a hell of
a time trying to do so. Couldn’t file the
assignment/dec forms with EPAS because of the problems
and couldn’t get back into PC to file the declaration
directly, so have to pay the surcharge for late filing
of declaration because of the PTO problems. In a fair
world, we would be able to get that refunded.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Roger</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Patentcenter
<a
href="mailto:patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Patent Lawyer via Patentcenter<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 18, 2024 10:25 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> For bug reports, feature requests, and
tips and tricks about Patent Center.
<a href="mailto:patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Patent Lawyer <a
href="mailto:patentlawyer995@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><patentlawyer995@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Patentcenter] Faxes to the PTO -
some legacy things do work</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">There was recent discussion about
faxes to the PTO and return faxes from the PTO.
</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Because of yesterday’s shit show with
Patent Center and because of other deficiencies in Patent
Center, I had to fax four separate submissions to the PTO
last night.</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">I did receive acknowledgment faxes
back from the PTO for each submission. So, that legacy
functionality is still there, and it still worked for me.
(I hope the PTO lurkers on this list don’t go and turn it
off!)</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">I use a service called eFax. It is
not free.</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">PS. I am still laughing at Sandra E’s
joke about DDOS being just normal filers filing in a
volume the system can’t handle.</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><br>
<br>
</span></p>
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