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<p>Let's see what the $160 or $400 flat fee needs to cover:</p>
<ul>
<li>practitioner starts with D1 DOCX file, prepares aux-PDF</li>
<li>practitioner commences e-filing project, receives D2 DOCX file</li>
<li>practitioner carries out comparison of D1 and D2</li>
<li>practitioner uploads aux-PDF</li>
<li>practitioner clicks submit</li>
<li>practitioner preserves aux-PDF locally in perpetuity</li>
<li>at 18-month pub, practitioner checks the publication for
rendering mistakes by USPTO</li>
<li>at issuance, practitioner checks the issued patent for
rendering mistakes by USPTO</li>
</ul>
<p>I am pretty sure that to cover these tasks, the professional-fee
charge would need to be a lot more than $400. I'd guess that at
normal practitioner billing rates this needs to be more like
$3000.</p>
<p>I also suggest that the flat fee would need to cover the added
professional liability risks associated with:</p>
<ul>
<li>being accused of getting the D1-D2 comparison wrong</li>
<li>being accused of uploading an aux-PDF that fails to match the
D1 file</li>
<li>note that you will never be able to prove exactly which D1
file you uploaded, since its name and file size and message
digest will be missing from the ack receipt, so you will never
be able to prove that your aux-PDF file really did match the D1
file</li>
<li>being accused of failing to do the check of the 18-month pub
thoroughly enough</li>
<li>being accused of failing to do the check of the issued patent
thoroughly enough</li>
<li>misplacing or accidentally deleting the locally preserved
aux-PDF file before the expiration of the patent plus six years
of litigation statute of limitations plus any PTE</li>
<li>accidentally modifying the locally preserved aux-PDF file so
that it differs by even one bit from what it was before, thus
guaranteeing that it will no longer match the message digest
that appears in the ack receipt</li>
</ul>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/18/2024 4:43 PM, Katherine Koenig
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:16516372-C5DB-40F7-9CDC-22B132EF97F8@koenigipworks.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">How about either (1) the fee + PDF or (2) DOCX +
$160/$400 flat fee for reviewing/comparing docs at filing? I
think most clients would opt for the PDF option. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Jan 18, 2024, at 6:17 PM, Carl
Oppedahl via Patentcenter
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com"><patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com></a> wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/18/2024 3:21 PM, Randall B.
Bateman via Patentcenter wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:SA1PR06MB8372F1BCF18A3FFFEAA3E3A5AE712@SA1PR06MB8372.namprd06.prod.outlook.com">
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">I
think that is a bit overstated. If the client has
been advised, the choice is up to them. It is not
malpractice to follow a client’s instructions if they
have been advised of the consequences.
</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>This only works if one can prove (at litigation time) that
one fully advised the client of all of the risks.</p>
<p>Clearly what needs to happen is somebody drafting up an
"advice of consequences" document and making sure that all
of the risks are indeed fully spelled out.</p>
<p>And then get the appropriate state ethics bodies to sign
off that it is permitted under ethics rules to ask a client
to agree to such a document. (Some state ethics bodies
frown on anything that smacks of asking a client to waive a
malpractice claim in advance.)</p>
<p>I suggest that merely memorializing "the client instructed
me to file via DOCX to avoid the penalty" is not going to
come anywhere close to protecting the practitioner. One
would have to spell out, quite fully, all of what you call
"the consequences". Just a couple of days ago I presented a
CLE program that required well over a dozen presentation
slides to spell out "the consequences".
<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:SA1PR06MB8372F1BCF18A3FFFEAA3E3A5AE712@SA1PR06MB8372.namprd06.prod.outlook.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">There
are a lot of solo inventors and small companies that
are very concerned about costs. I have also had
midsized clients that will likewise save money. A lot
also depends on what you are trying to patent, it
would seem that an application with chemical or other
formulas is at a much higher risk than a simple
mechanical case.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Randall
B. Bateman<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Registered
Patent Attorney<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"></span></p>
<div><image001.jpg></div>
<o:p></o:p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">P.O.
Box 1319<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Salt
Lake City, UT 84110<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">(801)533-0320<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><a
href="mailto:rbb@batemanip.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0563C1">rbb@batemanip.com</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><a
href="http://www.batemanip.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0563C1">www.batemanip.com</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">This
e-mail communication is intended for the sole use of
the of the addressee(s) and may contain confidential
attorney-client privileged communication and/or
attorney work product. Any review, use, distribution
or disclosure without the permission of the author of
the intended recipient(s) is strictly prohibited. If
you are not the intended recipient contact
<a href="mailto:rbb@batemanip.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">rbb@batemanip.com</span></a>
and destroy all copies of this communication.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Patentcenter <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard Straussman via
Patentcenter<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 18, 2024 2:38 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Randall Svihla via Patentcenter <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Richard Straussman <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:rstraussman@weitzmanip.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<rstraussman@weitzmanip.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Patentcenter] Declarations and
DOCX filing<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">I
seriously doubt that, unless the firm is one of those
that relies upon volume business from "one off" sole
inventors and drafts applications and claims that are
either not infringeable or trivially circumvented just
to get the revenue, in which case, I say good riddance
to bad rubbish, and when such an inventor comes to me
to assert a patent from such a firm that filed in DOCX
and the patent is hosed because of what the PTO did, I
will tell them to sue the firm who did so for
malpractice.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><strong><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:blue">Richard
Straussman</span></strong><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:navy"><br>
</span></b><span class="c4"><b>Senior Counsel</b></span><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><br>
</span></b><span class="c6"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt">Registered Patent
Attorney</span></b></span><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><br>
</span></b><span class="c6"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt">Member NY, NJ & CT
Bars</span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><br>
</span><strong><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#989898">.
. . . . . . . . . . . . .</span></strong>
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:maroon">Weitzman
Law Offices, LLC</span></strong><span
style="color:maroon"><br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Intellectual Property
Law</span></strong><br>
</span></span><span class="c4">425 Eagle Rock
Avenue, Suite 401 (PLEASE NOTE THE SUITE CHANGE)</span><span
class="c4"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
</span></span><span class="c4">Roseland, NJ 07068</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:maroon"><br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">direct line</span></strong></span><span
class="c16">
</span><span class="c6"><span style="font-size:8.0pt">973.403.9943</span></span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#656565"><br>
</span><strong><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:maroon">main</span></strong><span
class="c16">
</span><span class="c6"><span style="font-size:8.0pt">973.403.9940</span></span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#656565"><br>
</span><strong><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:maroon">fax</span></strong><span
class="c16">
</span><span class="c6"><span style="font-size:8.0pt">973.403.9944</span></span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:maroon"><br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">e-mail</span></strong></span><span
class="c16">
</span><span class="c13"><span style="font-size:8.0pt"><a
href="mailto:rstraussman@weitzmanip.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">rstraussman@weitzmanip.com</a></span></span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:maroon"><br>
<br>
<strong><u><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><a
href="http://www.weitzmanip.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://www.weitzmanip.com</a></span></u></strong><b><u><br>
</u></b><br>
</span><span style="color:maroon"><br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 1/18/2024 4:30 PM, Randall
Svihla via Patentcenter wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Some
firms might lose all of their clients in response to
such an ultimatum.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Patentcenter <a
href="mailto:patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard Straussman via
Patentcenter<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 18, 2024 4:17 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Boundy <a
href="mailto:DavidBoundyEsq@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<DavidBoundyEsq@gmail.com></a>; For bug
reports, feature requests, and tips and tricks
about Patent Center.
<a href="mailto:patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Richard Straussman <a
href="mailto:rstraussman@weitzmanip.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<rstraussman@weitzmanip.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Patentcenter] Declarations
and DOCX filing<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Point
taken, although if you clearly spell it out the
limitation of what you are reviewing and why it is
not reliable due to what the PTO does, I am not sure
that there is an implied warranty - especially if
they acknowledge that they are acting expressly
contrary to your advice, and that you are doing it
as a "courtesy" and the charge is simply because
time must be expended to do so, even though it may
be futile.<br>
<br>
I am still investigating if NY and NJ law allows one
to absolve oneself in this type of manner from
liability. If not, then it is PDF and pay the fee
or get new counsel.
<br>
<br>
BTW - virtually all of my clients qualify as "small
entity" so they only face a $160 charge, so if cost
is a factor, they WILL always opt for the PDF route,
as it will always be cheaper. The "large entity"
clients will follow my advice.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><strong><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:blue">Richard
Straussman</span></strong><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:navy"><br>
</span></b><span class="c4"><b>Senior Counsel</b></span><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><br>
</span></b><span class="c6"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt">Registered Patent
Attorney</span></b></span><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><br>
</span></b><span class="c6"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt">Member NY, NJ & CT
Bars</span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><br>
</span><strong><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#989898">.
. . . . . . . . . . . . .</span></strong>
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:maroon">Weitzman
Law Offices, LLC</span></strong><span
style="color:maroon"><br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Intellectual Property
Law</span></strong><br>
</span></span><span class="c4">425 Eagle Rock
Avenue, Suite 401 (PLEASE NOTE THE SUITE CHANGE)</span><span
class="c4"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
</span></span><span class="c4">Roseland, NJ 07068</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:maroon"><br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">direct line</span></strong></span><span
class="c16">
</span><span class="c6"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt">973.403.9943</span></span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#656565"><br>
</span><strong><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:maroon">main</span></strong><span
class="c16">
</span><span class="c6"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt">973.403.9940</span></span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#656565"><br>
</span><strong><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:maroon">fax</span></strong><span
class="c16">
</span><span class="c6"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt">973.403.9944</span></span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:maroon"><br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">e-mail</span></strong></span><span
class="c16">
</span><span class="c13"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt"><a
href="mailto:rstraussman@weitzmanip.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">rstraussman@weitzmanip.com</a></span></span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:maroon"><br>
<br>
<strong><u><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><a
href="http://www.weitzmanip.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://www.weitzmanip.com</a></span></u></strong><b><u><br>
</u></b><br>
</span><span style="color:maroon"><br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 1/18/2024 4:06 PM, David
Boundy wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I would not take the approach
Rich recommends. If you charge for
proofreading, you give an implied warranty.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">But you cannot warrant this.
Because of the inherent design of DOCX,
<b><i>you cannot know what the PTO received</i></b>.
Any DOCX you review on your computer is
necessarily
<b>on your computer</b>. That gives you exactly
zero insight into what the very same bits will
yield on the PTO's computers.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jan 18, 2024 at
4:01 PM Richard Straussman via Patentcenter <<a
href="mailto:patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Some of those,
especially "one off" clients, can find a new
attorney. For larger clients, I am trying
to work up a form along the lines of
something like this:
<br>
<br>
If you want to file in DOCX, we must have
the application complete and ready to file
at least 5 days before any due date, we will
charge to review the PTO created D2 file at
the fixed rate of $50 per text application
page and surcharge and additional $25 on top
for reviewing of each formula, table and per
page of pseudo code or source code listing
(we don't do chemical or biotech cases). We
will also create and upload an Auxiliary PDF
and retain that file and the message digest
for that file for a fixed fee of $250. <br>
<br>
Alternatively, they must agree to the filing
of a provisional application in PDF first
(and pay our fee and the Official Fee for
doing so) and we will file the DOCX the next
day that expressly incorporates the
provisional by reference in its entirety.<br>
<br>
We will also provide and send, with the
application and declaration, a form that the
Applicant MUST sign acknowledging all of the
problems and explaining the risks (to them
and us) associated with any DOCX filing with
or without the Auxiliary PDF or pre-filed
provisional, and that expressly states that
we absolutely ONLY recommend filing in PDF,
NEVER in DOCX, and that, if they insist on
DOCX, they affirmatively acknowledge that
they are acting
<u>directly contrary to our express legal
advice </u>and, thus, while we will,
thereafter, file in that form as a courtesy,
thereafter, they assume all responsibility
for all negatives that result from that form
of filing. Those per-page charges will be
itemized in the sent form and will ALWAYS
result in much greater than the $400
surcharge (unless the application is less
than 8 pages of pure text without an Aux
file) or 3 pages with one (a size I have
only filed once in 30 years of practice and,
in which case (due to my practice areas) the
risks are probably non-existent), so if they
opt for the DOCX route, "stupid is as stupid
does." If they refuse, then it is "sorry,
get new counsel time."</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Richard Straussman</span></strong><b><br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Senior Counsel</span></strong><br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Registered Patent
Attorney</span></strong><br>
</b>Member NY, NJ & CT Bars<br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">. . . . . . . . . . .
. . .</span></strong>
<br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Weitzman Law Offices,
LLC</span></strong><br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Intellectual Property
Law</span></strong><br>
425 Eagle Rock Avenue, Suite 401 (PLEASE
NOTE THE SUITE CHANGE)<br>
Roseland, NJ 07068<br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">direct line</span></strong>
973.403.9943<br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">main</span></strong>
973.403.9940<br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">fax</span></strong>
973.403.9944<br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">e-mail</span></strong>
<a href="mailto:rstraussman@weitzmanip.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">
rstraussman@weitzmanip.com</a><br>
<br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a
href="http://www.weitzmanip.com/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://www.weitzmanip.com</a></span></strong><b><br>
</b><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 1/18/2024 3:31 PM,
Randall Svihla via Patentcenter wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Not
every firm has clients who will agree to
pay the $400 non-DOCX surcharge
regardless of the parade of horribles.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b>
Patentcenter
<a
href="mailto:patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>David
Boundy via Patentcenter<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 18, 2024
3:28 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> For bug reports, feature
requests, and tips and tricks about
Patent Center.
<a
href="mailto:patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> David Boundy <a
href="mailto:DavidBoundyEsq@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
<DavidBoundyEsq@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Patentcenter]
Declarations and DOCX filing<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div
id="m_-7806230092778126326m_-1964162874824305034gmail-:4b3">
<div
id="m_-7806230092778126326m_-1964162874824305034gmail-:2uh">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I agree with
Rich. My firm has issued a
policy that we only file in
PDF. If a client wants DOCX,
we give them a parade of
horribles, and tell them that if
they want to save $400, they
must give us instructions in
writing, and acknowledge all the
costs of all the horribles. Any
nitwit can see that all the
excess costs will be close to,
perhaps above, $400 for even
best-case applications, and any
single high cost example will
drive the average far above
$400. I'll let you know in a
couple months if anyone accepts
the offer.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Thu, Jan
18, 2024 at 3:16 PM Richard Straussman
via Patentcenter <<a
href="mailto:patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor
currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Much better to
simply not file in DOCX (of
course, its your license at risk,
not to mention the value of any
patent that might issue).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Richard Straussman</span></strong><b><br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Senior Counsel</span></strong><br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Registered Patent
Attorney</span></strong><br>
</b>Member NY, NJ & CT Bars<br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">. . . . . . . . . . .
. . .</span></strong>
<br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Weitzman Law Offices,
LLC</span></strong><br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Intellectual Property
Law</span></strong><br>
425 Eagle Rock Avenue, Suite 401
(PLEASE NOTE THE SUITE CHANGE)<br>
Roseland, NJ 07068<br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">direct line</span></strong>
973.403.9943<br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">main</span></strong>
973.403.9940<br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">fax</span></strong>
973.403.9944<br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">e-mail</span></strong>
<a
href="mailto:rstraussman@weitzmanip.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">
rstraussman@weitzmanip.com</a><br>
<br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a
href="http://www.weitzmanip.com/" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://www.weitzmanip.com</a></span></strong><b><br>
</b><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On 1/18/2024
3:04 PM, Benjamin Keim via
Patentcenter wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">For those
applications that are filed in
DOCX, it bothers me that the
document reviewed by the
inventors when they decide to
sign the declaration is not the
document that is saved in Patent
Center. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">For PDF
filings we would send the
inventors the PDF document and
the declaration form. They would
choose to sign the declaration
if they agreed what was in the
PDF specification and drawings
was their invention. We would
upload the documents reviewed by
the inventors and they would be
saved in the USPTO’s electronic
system. I suppose it wasn’t
actually the documents reviewed
by the inventors because the
PDFs were changed by flattening
each page to a TIFF image and
reassembling as a PDF. But all
the ink on the page would be the
same but for some halftoning
degradation.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">The USPTO
declaration form PTO/AIA/01 for
declarations included with the
initial filing has the language
“As the below named inventor, I
hereby declare that: This
declaration is directed to: The
attached application.” What the
inventor considers as the
“attached application” may be
different than what becomes the
record copy in Patent Center.
Does this open up the inventors
to risk of fine or imprisonment
(or both) if the USPTO systems
change something significant in
the DOCX file?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I’m thinking
about creating a declaration
form that lists the file name,
file size, and SHA-512 hash of
the documents (spec and
drawings) provided to the
inventors. My intention for this
would be to unambiguously link
the documents reviewed by the
inventors with their statements
made in the declaration.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">-Ben<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Benjamin A.
Keim<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">(206)
920-9038<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span
style="color:#0563C1"><a
href="mailto:ben@newportip.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563C1">ben@newportip.com</span></a></span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-color:currentcolor">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b>
Patentcenter
<a
href="mailto:patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Carl
Oppedahl via Patentcenter<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday,
January 18, 2024 9:01 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> For bug reports,
feature requests, and tips
and tricks about Patent
Center.
<a
href="mailto:patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Carl Oppedahl <a
href="mailto:carl@oppedahl.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
<carl@oppedahl.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[Patentcenter] Faxes to the
PTO - some legacy things do
work<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Yeah,
I imagine most practitioners
do always file the declaration
with the application. I
imagine I am quite out of the
ordinary, having to hand in
inventors' declarations later.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">What
happens to me is, I keep
fiddling with the text of the
patent application,
particularly the claims, with
multiple version changes
leading up to the moment, late
in the day on the last
possible day, that I click
"submit" and e-file it at the
patent office.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">The
inventor declaration of course
is tied to the notion that the
signer has reviewed the patent
application that is going to
be filed, and agrees that he
or she is an inventor
thereof. But in my case,
given that the exact wording
of the application kept
wriggling around until the
very end, there is no way the
inventor could be expected to
sign such a thing until after
the wriggling had ceased.
Which means, no way could the
inventor even sign the
declaration until
chronologically after the
filing of the application had
taken place.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Yet
another thing that happens to
me is, the instructions come
in from foreign instructing
counsel to please get
something filed at the USPTO.
So I prepare inventor
declarations and send them to
instructing counsel. The
signed declarations do not
arrive until some days later,
long after the US patent
application got filed. Which
means, no way could I managed
to file the declaration with
the application.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On 1/18/2024
8:49 AM, Randall Svihla via
Patentcenter wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">We always file the
declaration with the
application.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-color:currentcolor">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b>
Patentcenter
<a
href="mailto:patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Roger
Browdy via Patentcenter<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday,
January 18, 2024 10:34 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> For bug
reports, feature requests,
and tips and tricks about
Patent Center.
<a
href="mailto:patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Roger Browdy <a
href="mailto:RLBrowdy@browdyneimark.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<RLBrowdy@browdyneimark.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[Patentcenter] Faxes to
the PTO - some legacy
things do work<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I don’t think
it is a joke. I bet there was
a huge volume of applications
filed Tuesday night to avoid
the DOCX tax. We had to file
one late at night and had a
hell of a time trying to do
so. Couldn’t file the
assignment/dec forms with EPAS
because of the problems and
couldn’t get back into PC to
file the declaration directly,
so have to pay the surcharge
for late filing of declaration
because of the PTO problems.
In a fair world, we would be
able to get that refunded.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Roger<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-color:currentcolor">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b>
Patentcenter
<a
href="mailto:patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<patentcenter-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Patent
Lawyer via Patentcenter<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday,
January 18, 2024 10:25 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> For bug
reports, feature requests,
and tips and tricks about
Patent Center.
<a
href="mailto:patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Patent Lawyer <a
href="mailto:patentlawyer995@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<patentlawyer995@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b>
[Patentcenter] Faxes to
the PTO - some legacy
things do work<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">There was
recent discussion about faxes
to the PTO and return faxes
from the PTO.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Because of
yesterday’s shit show with
Patent Center and because of
other deficiencies in Patent
Center, I had to fax four
separate submissions to the
PTO last night.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I did receive
acknowledgment faxes back from
the PTO for each submission.
So, that legacy functionality
is still there, and it still
worked for me. (I hope the
PTO lurkers on this list don’t
go and turn it off!)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I use a
service called eFax. It is
not free.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">PS. I am
still laughing at Sandra E’s
joke about DDOS being just
normal filers filing in a
volume the system can’t
handle.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">--
<br>
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Partner <span
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<p
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