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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style",serif;color:#1F497D">Carl,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style",serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style",serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks. That unfortunately tracks what I was thinking. I’m going to try the approach of talking to the examiner to see if he’s willing to produce an 892 listing
the document. He’s already been reasonably helpful in the office action suggesting how to get to allowance in this case, so he might be amenable to cooperating on this. At the very least, I hope to find out why something got handled this way.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style",serif;color:#1F497D;mso-ligatures:none;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Best regards,<br>
<b>Richard A. Schafer | Schafer IP Law</b></span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#1F497D;mso-ligatures:none;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style",serif;color:#1F497D;mso-ligatures:none;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">P.O. Box 230081 | Houston, TX 77223<br>
M: 832.283.6564 | </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style",serif;color:#1F497D;mso-ligatures:none"><a href="mailto:richard@schafer-ip.com"><span style="color:#0563C1">richard@schafer-ip.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style",serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-ligatures:none">From:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-ligatures:none"> Carl Oppedahl <carl@oppedahl.com>
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<b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 13, 2024 10:25 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> For bug reports, feature requests, and tips and tricks about Patent Center. <patentcenter@oppedahl-lists.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Patentcenter] What is a REF.OTHER reference?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>My sympathies. Yes, it seems to me that you have no choice but to somehow get the Examiner's initials and signature on either an 892 or a 1449 for this odd document. Otherwise, TYFNIL it would blow up. The adversary would surely find some real or imagined
reason why this reference somehow puts into question the validity of the patent.<span style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-ligatures:none"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p>What's particularly said about this is that if you fix it by filing an IDS, you will be stuck paying the fee for handing in the IDS after the first Office Action. I suppose you could try to duck it by saying that nobody who has ever touched the file was
aware of this reference more than three months ago, but to do that, you would have to spend hundreds of dollars' worth of time quizzing everybody who has ever touched the file. Cheaper just to pay the money.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>You could of course phone up the Examiner and try to sweet-talk the Examiner into listing it on an 892. But you may well not feel this is something you ought to need to do. There may be other things about the dynamic in the case where you may want to try
to get the Examiner to cooperate in some other way.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>My sympathies.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 5/13/2024 1:21 PM, Richard Schafer via Patentcenter wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style",serif">A client received an Office Action this morning. In addition to copies of the 1449s previously submitted by the client in this application and an 892 with references cited
by the examiner in the Office Action, the IFW includes a copy of a patent application publication that is not mentioned in the Office Action, not contained in the 892, and not disclosed in any 1449. There are no foreign related applications to this U.S. application,
so there’s no ISR or search report from any non-USPTO office. The Doc code is “REF.OTHER,” which is described in the PTO’s Document Description List as “Submission of US Patent, US Application documentation or International or Foreign Search Reports.”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style",serif">Since the reference isn’t listed in either an 892, a 1449, or even mentioned in the Office Action, was it considered
by the examiner? Filing an IDS just to be sure it’s correctly on the record seems absurd, but I’m uncomfortable not doing one.</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style",serif">Any idea why the examiner would list a reference like that? There is a Search Notes page in the IFW, but there is
no search data in any field, so there’s not even an indication of what was searched or how.</span><o:p></o:p></li></ol>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style",serif;mso-ligatures:none;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Best regards,<br>
<b>Richard A. Schafer | Schafer IP Law</b></span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond",serif;mso-ligatures:none;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style",serif;mso-ligatures:none;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">P.O. Box 230081 | Houston, TX 77223<br>
M: 832.283.6564 | </span><a href="mailto:richard@schafer-ip.com"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style",serif;color:#0563C1;mso-ligatures:none">richard@schafer-ip.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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