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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">If the last part of “at least one of ...” is meant to define a list, should the list be “a, b, and c?” Otherwise, it seems to me the list is indefinite.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">George<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">George Jakobsche Patent Counsel PLLC<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">39 Old Farm Road, Concord, MA 01742-5234<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><a href="mailto:George@JakobscheLaw.com"><span style="color:#0563C1">George@JakobscheLaw.com</span></a> | +1-978-245-8100<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This e-mail is from George Jakobsche Patent Counsel PLLC, a law firm, and it may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, do not read, copy, or distribute this message or any attachment(s).
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">Patentpractice <patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com> on behalf of Randy Smith via Patentpractice <patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com><br>
<b>Date: </b>Sunday, December 3, 2023 at 11:27</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">AM<br>
<b>To: </b>For patent practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com><br>
<b>Cc: </b>Randy Smith <ers@ipsafeguard.com><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Patentpractice] The use of "and/or" in claims<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">At least one of a, b or c. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">On Sun, Dec 3, 2023, 07:43 David Boundy via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Carl's word substitution works when you have two components. It doesn't work for three. Then you have to start exploding out the full cross product / power set of possible combinations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">There are times to tell an examiner to go suck eggs. This is one of them. Here's an argument I gave<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">• Webster’s Third New International Dictionary (the dictionary most often relied on by the Federal Circuit) defines “and/or” as “a function word to indicate that words are to be taken together or individually.”<br>
• Webster’s New Twentieth Century Dictionary gives the following definition, which is equivalent: “and/or either and or or; according to what applies: as, personal and/or real property.”<br>
• Webster’s New Collegiate gives the same definition as Webster’s Third New International.<br>
• The American Heritage Dictionary gives “and/or conj. Used to indicate that either or both of the items connected by it are involved.”<br>
• In December 2013, the Patent Trial and Appeal Board held that “and/or” is not indefinite,
<i>Ex parte Gross</i>, Appeal. No. 2011-4811, slip op. at 4, 2013 WL 6907805 at *2 (PTAB Dec. 31, 2013) (unpublished) (citations omitted):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">The Examiner rejected [claims] as indefinite based on the use of the term<br>
“and/or.” We agree with Appellant that “and/or” covers embodiments having<br>
element A alone, element B alone, or elements A and B taken together.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">• The expression “and/or” is used regularly throughout the MPEP, for example, in the form paragraphs that the PTO gives examiners to ensure that issues are communicated definitely. The PTO considers the term
“and/or” to be clear and definite.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">MPEP §§ 2111 and 2111.01 instruct as follows (citations and quotations omitted):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">The broadest reasonable interpretation of the claims must also be consistent with the<br>
interpretation that those skilled in the art would reach….<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">The Office Action identifies no ambiguity in the term “and/or,” and no other reason to believe that it is indefinite. “And/or” is definite because it has one and only one meaning, equivalent to “inclusive
or.” No other compact wording has the same unambiguous meaning.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">On Sat, Dec 2, 2023 at 4:49 AM Carl Oppedahl <<a href="mailto:carl@oppedahl.com" target="_blank">carl@oppedahl.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p>What he said. If anybody wonders what "and/or" means in a patent claim, we already know the answer. The term "A and/or B" means "A or B or 'A and B'". There is no reason to spend additional time or energy working on some other way to say it. And yes,
if an Examiner gripes about the term "A and/or B" in a claim, the way to shut up the Examiner is to make an amendment as to form that is "A or B or 'A and B'". The scope of the claim will be unchanged for Festo purposes and for all other purposes.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Yes I get it that sometimes the A and the B have high word counts. Too bad so sad. Yes when we then do the symbol manipulation that converts "A and/or B" into "A or B or 'A and B'", we may end up with a wholly unreadable claim and a word count in the
hundreds. To the extent that blame must be assigned, it lands on the Examiner. Everybody already knew what "and/or" meant but the Examiner played dumb on this. Too bad so sad.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Look for the silver lining in the cloud. If there had been any doubt about whether the claim was patentable under
<a href="https://blog.oppedahl.com/imbrication/" target="_blank">the four-finger rule</a>, the amendment to do the symbol manipulation that converts "A and/or B" into "A or B or 'A and B'" will eliminate any doubt as to patentability.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">On 12/1/2023 7:50 PM, David Boundy via Patentpractice wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">A couple people asked about why I hold my view that definitions are Bad Bad Bad. Reasons to lose definitions --<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> 0. for definitions that track the dictionary definition, there's NO upside. It's just a waste.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> 1. They tie your future litigator's hands. A successful enforcement action has to get a claim construction that is not too narrow, not too broad, just right. Every definition takes away a degree of
freedom that your litigator might need.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> 2. It takes away flexibility that you will likely need. during prosecution.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> 3. It gives infringers a green light -- some degree of ambiguity is your friend for some portions of a patent's life.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> 4. Inevitably, if you have more than a page or so, there will be an error. Typically that error will be about some corner case you didn't think about. Then you're really screwed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> 5. Technology evolves. Often technology words take on broader meanings over time. A definition as of the time of filing will lock out that future progress. Staley v Cultor is a perfect case to illustrate
the problem -- the patent had a definition <b><i>taken from the relevant FDA reg</i></b>--which you would think would be safe. But the preferred synthesis for the compound changed over time. So a definition led directly to non-infringement of a nine-figure
patent.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> 6. Examiners almost never look at definitions in the spec. Getting the examiner to credit a definition in the spec will almost always waste an office Action. So put the words IN THE CLAIM.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> 7. They lead to lazy writing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> 8. PCT, it costs you $15/page for zero upside.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">In over 30 years, I don't think I have included three definitions in my specs. Every time I have taken over a case with a bunch of definitions, these damn definitions have been a huge problem.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">In the spec, I give definitions using word of example, followed by examples, not words of definition: "Tyraonosoursous platformate may be oxide of 2- or 3-platen, complexed with tyranosor fluoride, oxide,
or bromide, in its up, down, charm, strange, bottom, or top flavor." I sometimes put definitions in dependent claims<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I've written a longer essay on why definitions are bad bad bad several times to these lists -- if you search the archives for the word "Cultor" you'll find a longer essay.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 7:58 PM David Boundy <<a href="mailto:DavidBoundyEsq@gmail.com" target="_blank">DavidBoundyEsq@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Boilerplate definitions of this sort will do you more harm than good. Lose the whole bunch.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">On Fri, Dec 1, 2023, 2:57 PM George Jakobsche via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">For whatever it is worth, my template patent application includes the following boilerplate language:</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">As used herein, including in the claims, the term “and/or,” used in connection with a list of items or categories, means one or more of the items
or categories in the list, i.e., at least one of the items or categories in the list, but not necessarily all the items in the list and not necessarily one item from each category in the list. As used herein, including in the claims, the term “or,” used in
connection with a list of items or categories, means one or more of the items or categories in the list, i.e., at least one of the items or categories in the list, but not necessarily all the items in the list and not necessarily one item from each category
in the list. “Or” does not mean “exclusive or,” and “or” does not mean “at least one from each (category).”</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Best regards,</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">George</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">George Jakobsche Patent Counsel PLLC</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">39 Old Farm Road, Concord, MA 01742-5234</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><a href="mailto:George@JakobscheLaw.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563C1">George@JakobscheLaw.com</span></a> | +1-978-245-8100</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">This e-mail is from George Jakobsche Patent Counsel PLLC, a law firm, and it may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not the
intended recipient, do not read, copy, or distribute this message or any attachment(s). Instead, please notify the sender and delete the message and the attachment(s). Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> on behalf of Bryan McWhorter via Patentpractice
<<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Friday, December 1, 2023 at 2:24</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">PM<br>
<b>To: </b>For patent practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>Bryan McWhorter <<a href="mailto:bryan@bggm.net" target="_blank">bryan@bggm.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Patentpractice] The use of "and/or" in claims</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I generally agree with you David, though I take issue with the BRI of "and/or" being "or" (potentially in an exclusive sense, though the examiner
does not seem to say). It's true that and/or <i>encompasses</i> 'exclusive or', and so this interpretation may work for art-based rejections (at least to some extent). But for other sections--Section 112 for example--or for more complicated 103 questions,
it's important to remember that "exclusive or" is <i>not </i>the broadest reasonable interpretation of "and/or".<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">To be clear, I concur that 'and/or' is not in any way open to multiple interpretations. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Bryan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 10:57 AM David Boundy via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">PL> questions examiners interpretation of and/or<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
I agree with the several comments that the examiner's interpretation is the correct "broadest reasonable interpretation"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">RS> So we agree using "and/or" in claims is open to multiple interpretations<br>
<br>
I disagree EMPHATICALLY with RS. "and/or" has one and only one meaning, "inclusive or." Naked "or" is ambiguous, either "inclusive or" or "exclusive or" with no predictable rhyme or reeason. A cynic could easily conclude that --<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Naked "or" means "exclusive or" if the defendant raises a non-infringement defense. Naked "or" means "inclusive or" if the defendant raises an invalidity
defense.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I NEVER use naked "or." I always use something that is unambiguous -- "and/or" often is my choice. If the examiner says this is indefinite, I often
cite Gross, see Bryan Wheelock's email.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">You also have to watch out for forms that can mean "any one of x y or z in pure form, no mixtures or alloys." Any ambiguity gives a defendant a free
option to choose invalidity or noninfringement.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">On Fri, Dec 1, 2023, 12:09 PM Randy Smith via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">So we agree using "and/or" in claims is open to multiple interpretations. If you don't want to create a potential $$$litigation issue, use unambiguous
language like "at least one of A, B or C" as suggested below. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I agree the examiner uses the broadest interpretation in prosecution so he/she just needs a reference with any of them. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">On Fri, Dec 1, 2023, 10:04 Patent Lawyer via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">We've seen this before, but I cannot find the discussion.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">In an office action, an examiner writes:</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">All claim limitations that include "and/or" are interpreted as "or". If applicant disagrees with this interpretation,
they are invited to amend the "and/or" to "and".</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">I believe the examiner is wrong! And I will point that out.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">BUT I recall that there was some case that discussed this.
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">I would appreciate a pointer to a case or other reference discussing this issue.
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">Thanks in advance.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">--
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">On Fri, Dec 1, 2023, 12:09 PM Randy Smith via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">So we agree using "and/or" in claims is open to multiple interpretations. If you don't want to create a potential $$$litigation issue, use unambiguous
language like "at least one of A, B or C" as suggested below. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I agree the examiner uses the broadest interpretation in prosecution so he/she just needs a reference with any of them. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">On Fri, Dec 1, 2023, 10:04 Patent Lawyer via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">We've seen this before, but I cannot find the discussion.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">In an office action, an examiner writes:</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">All claim limitations that include "and/or" are interpreted as "or". If applicant disagrees with this interpretation,
they are invited to amend the "and/or" to "and".</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">I believe the examiner is wrong! And I will point that out.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">BUT I recall that there was some case that discussed this.
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">I would appreciate a pointer to a case or other reference discussing this issue.
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">Thanks in advance.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">On Fri, Dec 1, 2023, 12:09 PM Randy Smith via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">So we agree using "and/or" in claims is open to multiple interpretations. If you don't want to create a potential $$$litigation issue, use unambiguous
language like "at least one of A, B or C" as suggested below. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I agree the examiner uses the broadest interpretation in prosecution so he/she just needs a reference with any of them. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">On Fri, Dec 1, 2023, 10:04 Patent Lawyer via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">We've seen this before, but I cannot find the discussion.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">In an office action, an examiner writes:</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">All claim limitations that include "and/or" are interpreted as "or". If applicant disagrees with this interpretation,
they are invited to amend the "and/or" to "and".</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">I believe the examiner is wrong! And I will point that out.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">BUT I recall that there was some case that discussed this.
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">I would appreciate a pointer to a case or other reference discussing this issue.
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">Thanks in advance.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Open Sans",sans-serif;color:#667FA0"><a href="https://www.iam-media.com/strategy300/individuals/david-boundy" target="_blank"><span style="color:#667FA0;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in;text-decoration:none"><img border="0" width="73" height="92" style="width:.7604in;height:.9583in" id="_x0000_i1026" src="cid:~WRD0000.jpg" alt="Image removed by sender."></span><span style="color:#667FA0;text-decoration:none">
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<p style="margin:0in;text-align:start"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#606E9A">David Boundy </span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#7C869A">| Partner <span style="background:white">| </span>Potomac Law
Group, PLLC</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#323130"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;text-align:start"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#7C869A">P.O. Box 590638, Newton, MA 02459</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#323130"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#7C869A">Tel (646) 472-9737 </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:gray">|</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#7C869A"> Fax:
(202) 318-7707</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#7C869A"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0C64C0"><a href="mailto:dboundy@potomaclaw.com" target="_blank" title="mailto:dboundy@potomaclaw.com"><span style="color:#FE46A5">dboundy@potomaclaw.com</span></a></span></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0C64C0"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#7C869A">| <u><a href="http://www.potomaclaw.com" target="_blank" title="http://www.potomaclaw.com/"><span style="color:#0C64C0">www.potomaclaw.com</span></a></u></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#7C869A"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a href="http://ssrn.com/author=2936470" target="_blank">Articles at http://ssrn.com/author=2936470</a><a href="https://www.keynect.us/requestCardAccess/USA500DBOUN?" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext"><br>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Open Sans",sans-serif;color:#667FA0"><a href="https://www.iam-media.com/strategy300/individuals/david-boundy" target="_blank"><span style="color:#667FA0;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in;text-decoration:none"><img border="0" width="73" height="92" style="width:.7604in;height:.9583in" id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:~WRD0000.jpg" alt="Image removed by sender."></span><span style="color:#667FA0;text-decoration:none">
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</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;text-align:start"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#606E9A">David Boundy </span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#7C869A">| Partner <span style="background:white">| </span>Potomac Law
Group, PLLC</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#323130"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;text-align:start"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#7C869A">P.O. Box 590638, Newton, MA 02459</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#323130"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#7C869A">Tel (646) 472-9737 </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:gray">|</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#7C869A"> Fax:
(202) 318-7707</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#7C869A"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0C64C0"><a href="mailto:dboundy@potomaclaw.com" target="_blank" title="mailto:dboundy@potomaclaw.com"><span style="color:#FE46A5">dboundy@potomaclaw.com</span></a></span></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0C64C0"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#7C869A">| <u><a href="http://www.potomaclaw.com" target="_blank" title="http://www.potomaclaw.com/"><span style="color:#0C64C0">www.potomaclaw.com</span></a></u></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#7C869A"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a href="http://ssrn.com/author=2936470" target="_blank">Articles at http://ssrn.com/author=2936470</a><a href="https://www.keynect.us/requestCardAccess/USA500DBOUN?" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext"><br>
</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a href="https://www.keynect.us/requestCardAccess/USA500DBOUN?" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext">Click here to add me to your contacts.</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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