<div dir="ltr"><div>Michael -- count how many appearances of and/or in <a href="https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/mpep-2100.pdf">https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/mpep-2100.pdf</a></div><div><br></div><div>Others -- I don't understand the problem that all these complicated formulations are intended to solve. Why look for complicated solutions to a simple problem? All that extra verbiage puts a huge burden on you to be super-precise! "and/or" and <i>Gross</i> just makes the problem go away, so you can go home. And it's fun to tell an examiner to shove off.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Doesn't Randy's latest steer you into the DirecTV problem?</div><div><br></div><div>Among the things you have to worry about --</div><div> -- mixtures, alloys, and the like</div><div> -- two from the list, with the first half of the job done by A and the second half by B<br></div><div> -- constructions that require the presence of one of each (the DirecTV problem)</div><div><br></div><div>What problem does "A, B. and/or C" or "A, B, C, and/or combinations/mixtures thereof" have that's worth the turn-upside-downing from several of you?</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 2:34 PM Randy Smith via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">That works, the clearer the better! How about at least one of the group consisting of at least one A, at least one B and at least one C?</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Dec 3, 2023, 13:25 Randall Svihla via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">How about my suggestions of "either one or both of a and b" and "any
one or any combination of any two or more of a, b, and c"?<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><span> Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Weitzmanip via Patentpractice<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, December 3, 2023 1:35 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> For patent practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> Weitzmanip <<a href="mailto:rstraussman@weitzmanip.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">rstraussman@weitzmanip.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Patentpractice] The use of "and/or" in claims<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">How about “any one or more of a, b or c, individually or in combination “? That seems to be the most unambiguous encompassing of a,
b, c, ab, ac, bc and abc. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"><br>
On Dec 3, 2023, at 8:45 AM, David Boundy via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">Carl's word substitution works when you have two components. It doesn't work for three. Then you have to start exploding out the full
cross product / power set of possible combinations.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">There are times to tell an examiner to go suck eggs. This is one of them. Here's an argument I gave<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">• Webster’s Third New International Dictionary (the dictionary most often relied on by the Federal Circuit) defines “and/or” as “a function
word to indicate that words are to be taken together or individually.”<br>
• Webster’s New Twentieth Century Dictionary gives the following definition, which is equivalent: “and/or either and or or; according to what applies: as, personal and/or real property.”<br>
• Webster’s New Collegiate gives the same definition as Webster’s Third New International.<br>
• The American Heritage Dictionary gives “and/or conj. Used to indicate that either or both of the items connected by it are involved.”<br>
• In December 2013, the Patent Trial and Appeal Board held that “and/or” is not indefinite,
<i><span style="font-style:italic">Ex parte Gross</span></i>, Appeal. No. 2011-4811, slip op. at 4, 2013 WL 6907805 at *2 (PTAB Dec. 31, 2013) (unpublished) (citations omitted):<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">The Examiner rejected [claims] as indefinite based on the use of the term<br>
“and/or.” We agree with Appellant that “and/or” covers embodiments having<br>
element A alone, element B alone, or elements A and B taken together.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">• The expression “and/or” is used regularly throughout the MPEP, for example, in the form paragraphs that the PTO gives examiners to
ensure that issues are communicated definitely. The PTO considers the term “and/or” to be clear and definite.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">MPEP §§ 2111 and 2111.01 instruct as follows (citations and quotations omitted):<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">The broadest reasonable interpretation of the claims must also be consistent with the<br>
interpretation that those skilled in the art would reach….<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">The Office Action identifies no ambiguity in the term “and/or,” and no other reason to believe that it is indefinite. “And/or” is definite
because it has one and only one meaning, equivalent to “inclusive or.” No other compact wording has the same unambiguous meaning.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">On Sat, Dec 2, 2023 at 4:49 AM Carl Oppedahl <<a href="mailto:carl@oppedahl.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">carl@oppedahl.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">What he said. If anybody wonders what "and/or" means in a patent claim, we already know the answer. The term "A and/or B" means "A or B or 'A and B'". There is no reason to spend additional
time or energy working on some other way to say it. And yes, if an Examiner gripes about the term "A and/or B" in a claim, the way to shut up the Examiner is to make an amendment as to form that is "A or B or 'A and B'". The scope of the claim will be unchanged
for Festo purposes and for all other purposes.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">Yes I get it that sometimes the A and the B have high word counts. Too bad so sad. Yes when we then do the symbol manipulation that converts "A and/or B" into "A or B or 'A and B'", we may end
up with a wholly unreadable claim and a word count in the hundreds. To the extent that blame must be assigned, it lands on the Examiner. Everybody already knew what "and/or" meant but the Examiner played dumb on this. Too bad so sad.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">Look for the silver lining in the cloud. If there had been any doubt about whether the claim was patentable under
<a href="https://blog.oppedahl.com/imbrication/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">the four-finger rule</a>, the amendment to do the symbol manipulation that converts "A and/or B" into "A or B or 'A and B'" will eliminate any doubt as to patentability.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">On 12/1/2023 7:50 PM, David Boundy via Patentpractice wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">A couple people asked about why I hold my view that definitions are Bad Bad Bad. Reasons to lose definitions --<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> 0. for definitions that track the dictionary definition, there's NO upside. It's just a waste.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> 1. They tie your future litigator's hands. A successful enforcement action has to get a claim construction that is not too narrow,
not too broad, just right. Every definition takes away a degree of freedom that your litigator might need.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> 2. It takes away flexibility that you will likely need. during prosecution.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> 3. It gives infringers a green light -- some degree of ambiguity is your friend for some portions of a patent's life.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> 4. Inevitably, if you have more than a page or so, there will be an error. Typically that error will be about some corner case
you didn't think about. Then you're really screwed.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> 5. Technology evolves. Often technology words take on broader meanings over time. A definition as of the time of filing will
lock out that future progress. Staley v Cultor is a perfect case to illustrate the problem -- the patent had a definition
<b><i><span style="font-weight:bold;font-style:italic">taken from the relevant FDA reg</span></i></b>--which you would think would be safe. But the preferred synthesis for the compound changed over time. So a definition led directly to non-infringement of
a nine-figure patent.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> 6. Examiners almost never look at definitions in the spec. Getting the examiner to credit a definition in the spec will almost
always waste an office Action. So put the words IN THE CLAIM.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> 7. They lead to lazy writing.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> 8. PCT, it costs you $15/page for zero upside.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">In over 30 years, I don't think I have included three definitions in my specs. Every time I have taken over a case with a bunch of definitions,
these damn definitions have been a huge problem.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">In the spec, I give definitions using word of example, followed by examples, not words of definition: "Tyraonosoursous platformate
may be oxide of 2- or 3-platen, complexed with tyranosor fluoride, oxide, or bromide, in its up, down, charm, strange, bottom, or top flavor." I sometimes put definitions in dependent claims<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">I've written a longer essay on why definitions are bad bad bad several times to these lists -- if you search the archives for the word
"Cultor" you'll find a longer essay.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 7:58 PM David Boundy <<a href="mailto:DavidBoundyEsq@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">DavidBoundyEsq@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">Boilerplate definitions of this sort will do you more harm than good. Lose the whole bunch.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">On Fri, Dec 1, 2023, 2:57 PM George Jakobsche via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:12pt">For whatever it is worth, my template patent application includes the following boilerplate language:</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:12pt">As used herein, including in the claims, the term “and/or,” used in connection with a list of items or categories, means
one or more of the items or categories in the list, i.e., at least one of the items or categories in the list, but not necessarily all the items in the list and not necessarily one item from each category in the list. As used herein, including in the claims,
the term “or,” used in connection with a list of items or categories, means one or more of the items or categories in the list, i.e., at least one of the items or categories in the list, but not necessarily all the items in the list and not necessarily one
item from each category in the list. “Or” does not mean “exclusive or,” and “or” does not mean “at least one from each (category).”</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:12pt">Best regards,</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border-style:none none solid;border-width:medium medium 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 1pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor windowtext">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:12pt">George</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:12pt">George Jakobsche Patent Counsel PLLC</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:12pt">39 Old Farm Road, Concord, MA 01742-5234</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:12pt"><a href="mailto:George@JakobscheLaw.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"><font color="#0563c1"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">George@JakobscheLaw.com</span></font></a>
| +1-978-245-8100</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">This e-mail is from George Jakobsche Patent Counsel PLLC, a law firm, and it may contain confidential or privileged
information. If you are not the intended recipient, do not read, copy, or distribute this message or any attachment(s). Instead, please notify the sender and delete the message and the attachment(s). Thank you.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div id="m_2054618928420832354m_-1976438962791810000m_3105670812222606380m_-3459056250688212977m_-4115428830930365076m_5498788859378822975mail-editor-reference-message-container">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><b><font size="3" face="Aptos" color="black"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black;font-weight:bold">From:
</span></font></b><font size="3" face="Aptos" color="black"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
on behalf of Bryan McWhorter via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span></b>Friday, December 1, 2023 at 2:24</span></font><font size="3" face="Arial" color="black"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></font><font size="3" face="Aptos" color="black"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span></b>For patent practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span></b>Bryan McWhorter <<a href="mailto:bryan@bggm.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">bryan@bggm.net</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span></b>Re: [Patentpractice] The use of "and/or" in claims</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">I generally agree with you David, though I take issue with the BRI of "and/or" being "or" (potentially in an exclusive
sense, though the examiner does not seem to say). It's true that and/or <i><span style="font-style:italic">encompasses</span></i> 'exclusive or', and so this interpretation may work for art-based rejections (at least to some extent). But for other sections--Section
112 for example--or for more complicated 103 questions, it's important to remember that "exclusive or" is
<i><span style="font-style:italic">not </span></i>the broadest reasonable interpretation of "and/or".<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">To be clear, I concur that 'and/or' is not in any way open to multiple interpretations. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">Bryan<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 10:57 AM David Boundy via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">PL> questions examiners interpretation of and/or<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"><br>
I agree with the several comments that the examiner's interpretation is the correct "broadest reasonable interpretation"<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">RS> So we agree using "and/or" in claims is open to multiple interpretations<br>
<br>
I disagree EMPHATICALLY with RS. "and/or" has one and only one meaning, "inclusive or." Naked "or" is ambiguous, either "inclusive or" or "exclusive or" with no predictable rhyme or reeason. A cynic could easily conclude that --<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">Naked "or" means "exclusive or" if the defendant raises a non-infringement defense. Naked "or" means "inclusive or"
if the defendant raises an invalidity defense.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">I NEVER use naked "or." I always use something that is unambiguous -- "and/or" often is my choice. If the examiner
says this is indefinite, I often cite Gross, see Bryan Wheelock's email.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">You also have to watch out for forms that can mean "any one of x y or z in pure form, no mixtures or alloys." Any ambiguity
gives a defendant a free option to choose invalidity or noninfringement.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">On Fri, Dec 1, 2023, 12:09 PM Randy Smith via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">So we agree using "and/or" in claims is open to multiple interpretations. If you don't want to create a potential $$$litigation
issue, use unambiguous language like "at least one of A, B or C" as suggested below. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">I agree the examiner uses the broadest interpretation in prosecution so he/she just needs a reference with any of them. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">On Fri, Dec 1, 2023, 10:04 Patent Lawyer via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt">We've seen this before, but I cannot find the discussion.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt">In an office action, an examiner writes:</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-style:italic">All claim limitations that include "and/or" are interpreted
as "or". If applicant disagrees with this interpretation, they are invited to amend the "and/or" to "and".</span></font></i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt">I believe the examiner is wrong! And I will point that out.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt">BUT I recall that there was some case that discussed this.
</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt">I would appreciate a pointer to a case or other reference discussing this issue.
</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt">Thanks in advance.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">On Fri, Dec 1, 2023, 12:09 PM Randy Smith via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">So we agree using "and/or" in claims is open to multiple interpretations. If you don't want to create a potential $$$litigation
issue, use unambiguous language like "at least one of A, B or C" as suggested below. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">I agree the examiner uses the broadest interpretation in prosecution so he/she just needs a reference with any of them. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">On Fri, Dec 1, 2023, 10:04 Patent Lawyer via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt">We've seen this before, but I cannot find the discussion.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt">In an office action, an examiner writes:</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-style:italic">All claim limitations that include "and/or" are interpreted
as "or". If applicant disagrees with this interpretation, they are invited to amend the "and/or" to "and".</span></font></i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt">I believe the examiner is wrong! And I will point that out.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt">BUT I recall that there was some case that discussed this.
</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt">I would appreciate a pointer to a case or other reference discussing this issue.
</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt">Thanks in advance.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">On Fri, Dec 1, 2023, 12:09 PM Randy Smith via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">So we agree using "and/or" in claims is open to multiple interpretations. If you don't want to create a potential $$$litigation
issue, use unambiguous language like "at least one of A, B or C" as suggested below. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">I agree the examiner uses the broadest interpretation in prosecution so he/she just needs a reference with any of them. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">On Fri, Dec 1, 2023, 10:04 Patent Lawyer via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt">We've seen this before, but I cannot find the discussion.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt">In an office action, an examiner writes:</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-style:italic">All claim limitations that include "and/or" are interpreted
as "or". If applicant disagrees with this interpretation, they are invited to amend the "and/or" to "and".</span></font></i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt">I believe the examiner is wrong! And I will point that out.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt">BUT I recall that there was some case that discussed this.
</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt">I would appreciate a pointer to a case or other reference discussing this issue.
</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:14pt">Thanks in advance.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
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<p style="margin:0in"><u><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0c64c0"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(12,100,192)"><a href="mailto:dboundy@potomaclaw.com" title="mailto:dboundy@potomaclaw.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"><font color="#fe46a5"><span style="color:rgb(254,70,165)">dboundy@potomaclaw.com</span></font></a></span></font></u><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0c64c0"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(12,100,192)"> </span></font><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#7c869a"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(124,134,154)">| <u><a href="http://www.potomaclaw.com" title="http://www.potomaclaw.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"><font color="#0c64c0"><span style="color:rgb(12,100,192)">www.potomaclaw.com</span></font></a></u></span></font><font size="2" face="Helvetica" color="#7c869a"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(124,134,154)"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:10pt"><a href="http://ssrn.com/author=2936470" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">Articles at http://ssrn.com/author=2936470</a><a href="https://www.keynect.us/requestCardAccess/USA500DBOUN?" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"><font color="black"><span style="color:windowtext"><br>
</span></font></a><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:10pt"><a href="https://www.keynect.us/requestCardAccess/USA500DBOUN?" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"><font color="black"><span style="color:windowtext">Click here to add me to your contacts.</span></font></a><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<font size="1" face="Open Sans" color="#667fa0"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Open Sans",sans-serif;color:rgb(102,127,160)"><a href="https://www.iam-media.com/strategy300/individuals/david-boundy" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"><font color="#667fa0"><span style="color:rgb(102,127,160);border:1pt solid windowtext;padding:0in;text-decoration:none"><img id="m_2054618928420832354m_-1976438962791810000Picture_x0020_2" alt="Image removed by sender." width="73" height="92" border="0"></span></font><font color="#667fa0"><span style="color:rgb(102,127,160);text-decoration:none">
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<p style="margin:0in;text-align:start"><b><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#606e9a"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(96,110,154);font-weight:bold">David Boundy </span></font></b><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#7c869a"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(124,134,154)">|
Partner <span style="background:white">| </span>Potomac Law Group, PLLC</span></font><font size="3" face="Arial" color="#323130"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(50,49,48)"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="margin:0in;text-align:start"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#7c869a"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(124,134,154)">P.O. Box 590638, Newton, MA 02459</span></font><font size="3" face="Arial" color="#323130"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(50,49,48)"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><font size="2" face="Helvetica" color="#7c869a"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(124,134,154)">Tel (646) 472-9737 </span></font><font size="2" face="Helvetica" color="gray"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:gray">|</span></font><font size="2" face="Helvetica" color="#7c869a"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(124,134,154)"> Fax:
(202) 318-7707<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><u><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0c64c0"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(12,100,192)"><a href="mailto:dboundy@potomaclaw.com" title="mailto:dboundy@potomaclaw.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"><font color="#fe46a5"><span style="color:rgb(254,70,165)">dboundy@potomaclaw.com</span></font></a></span></font></u><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0c64c0"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(12,100,192)"> </span></font><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#7c869a"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(124,134,154)">| <u><a href="http://www.potomaclaw.com" title="http://www.potomaclaw.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"><font color="#0c64c0"><span style="color:rgb(12,100,192)">www.potomaclaw.com</span></font></a></u></span></font><font size="2" face="Helvetica" color="#7c869a"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(124,134,154)"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:10pt"><a href="http://ssrn.com/author=2936470" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">Articles at http://ssrn.com/author=2936470</a><a href="https://www.keynect.us/requestCardAccess/USA500DBOUN?" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"><font color="black"><span style="color:windowtext"><br>
</span></font></a><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:10pt"><a href="https://www.keynect.us/requestCardAccess/USA500DBOUN?" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"><font color="black"><span style="color:windowtext">Click here to add me to your contacts.</span></font></a><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<b><span style="margin:0px;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(96,110,154)">David Boundy </span></b><span style="margin:0px;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(124,134,154)">| Partner </span><span style="margin:0px;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(124,134,154)"><span style="margin:0px;background-color:white;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">|</span><span style="margin:0px;background-color:white"><span style="margin:0px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"> </span></span></span><span style="margin:0px;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(124,134,154)">Potomac Law
Group, PLLC</span></p>
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<span style="margin:0px;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(124,134,154)">P.O. Box 590638, Newton, MA 02459</span></p>
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<span style="margin:0px;font-size:10pt"></span><span style="margin:0px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:12pt"><font size="2" face="Helvetica" color="#7C869A"><span style="margin:0px"><span style="margin:0px;font-size:10pt"><span style="margin:0px">Tel
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<span style="margin:0px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:12pt"><span style="margin:0px;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(12,100,192)"><u><a href="mailto:dboundy@potomaclaw.com" title="mailto:dboundy@potomaclaw.com" style="color:rgb(254,70,165)" target="_blank">dboundy@potomaclaw.com</a></u> </span></span><span style="margin:0px;color:gray"><span style="margin:0px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:12pt"><u><span style="margin:0px;font-size:10pt"></span></u></span></span><span style="margin:0px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:10pt">| </span><u style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><a href="http://www.potomaclaw.com" rel="noopener noreferrer" title="http://www.potomaclaw.com/" style="margin:0px" target="_blank"><span style="margin:0px;color:rgb(12,100,192)">www.potomaclaw.com</span></a></u></p><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><font size="2">
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</span><a href="http://ssrn.com/author=2936470" target="_blank">Articles at http://ssrn.com/author=2936470</a><a href="https://www.keynect.us/requestCardAccess/USA500DBOUN?" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext"><br></span></a></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><a href="https://www.keynect.us/requestCardAccess/USA500DBOUN?" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext">Click here to add me to your
contacts.</span></a></p></font></span></span></span></span></span><p style="margin:0px 0px 10px;color:rgb(102,102,102);font-family:"Open Sans",sans-serif,Arial;font-size:14px"><span style="font-weight:700"></span></p></span></span><font size="1"><span style="line-height:150%;font-family:"Times New Roman""></span></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></span><font size="1"><span style="line-height:150%;font-family:"Times New Roman""></span></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></span><span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"></span></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>