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<div class="elementToProof"><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">I did a little research and found this article from 2017 about oral arguments.
<a href="https://ipwatchdog.com/2017/05/05/ex-parte-appeal-oral-hearings/id=82827/" id="OWA411c8889-df46-b1b7-a395-5712a82fcdac" class="OWAAutoLink">
Ex Parte Appeal Oral Hearings: Making Your Case Right Before Decision Time - IPWatchdog.com | Patents & Intellectual Property Law</a></span></div>
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It found that: (1) less than 1% of appeals include an oral hearing (this is surprising to me) and (2) the examiner is fully reversed more often when the appeal includes an oral hearing (fully reversed 40.3% of time with an oral hearing vs 32.5% of the time without
an oral hearing).</div>
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<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, serif; color: rgb(31, 56, 100);"><b>Scott Nielson</b></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, serif; color: black;">801-660-4400</span></p>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Patentpractice <patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com> on behalf of Scott Nielson via Patentpractice <patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 6, 2023 5:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Roger Browdy <RLBrowdy@browdyneimark.com>; For patent practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Scott Nielson <scnielson@outlook.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Patentpractice] New Examiner?</font>
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Roger, I'd like to learn more about this. Where did the PTAB judges say this?</div>
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<p style="margin:0in; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt"><span style="font-family:"Aptos Serif",Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,serif; color:black">801-660-4400</span></p>
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<div id="x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Roger Browdy <RLBrowdy@browdyneimark.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 6, 2023 4:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> For patent practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Scott Nielson <scnielson@outlook.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Patentpractice] New Examiner?</font>
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<p class="x_x_MsoNormal">Think carefully about oral hearings. Many a PTAB judge has opined that more cases are lost at oral hearing than won.</p>
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<p class="x_x_MsoNormal">Roger</p>
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<p class="x_x_MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Patentpractice <patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Scott Nielson via Patentpractice<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 6, 2023 5:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> For patent practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Scott Nielson <scnielson@outlook.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Patentpractice] New Examiner?</p>
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<p class="x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif; color:black">I agree with what David said. I appeal a lot of poor rejections that are withdrawn by the USPTO at either the pre-appeal brief or appeal brief stage. Many of these are rejections
made by junior examiners whose supervisors rubber stamp rejections but will only take a close look when forced to do so by an appeal.</span></p>
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<p class="x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif; color:black">However, if you appeal the rejection of a primary examiner and it's relatively close (e.g., you are disputing the sufficiency of the reasons for combining references provided
by the examiner, etc.), then there is a good chance it will be forwarded to the Board.</span></p>
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<p class="x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif; color:black">My other suggestion is to request an oral hearing unless you are truly confident the examiner is wrong. An oral hearing allows you to make your case without the examiner present
(they rarely show up). I have won a lot of appeals without an oral hearing, but this most recent case that I lost has me rethinking that approach. Of course, the benefit of an oral hearing must be considered in view of the additional cost. That said, I think
moving forward my default will be to recommend an oral hearing.</span></p>
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<p class="x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif; color:black">Anyway, good luck!</span></p>
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<p><b><span style="font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif; color:#1F3864">Scott Nielson</span></b></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif; color:black">801-660-4400</span></p>
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<p class="x_x_MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:black">From:</span></b><span style="color:black"> Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com">patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> on behalf of Katherine Koenig via Patentpractice
<<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 6, 2023 1:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> For patent practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Katherine Koenig <<a href="mailto:katherine@koenigipworks.com">katherine@koenigipworks.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Patentpractice] New Examiner?</span> </p>
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<p class="x_x_xmsonormal">Thank you to everyone who replied. My impression of chances of success were closer to what Scott had written, but I’m very glad to see David’s numbers!
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<p class="x_x_xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif; color:black">Best regards,</span></p>
<p class="x_x_xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="x_x_xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif; color:black">Katherine</span></p>
<p class="x_x_xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="x_x_xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif; color:black">Dr. Katherine Koenig</span></p>
<p class="x_x_xmsonormal"><i><span style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif; color:black">Registered Patent Attorney</span></i></p>
<p class="x_x_xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif; color:black">Koenig IP Works, PLLC</span></p>
<p class="x_x_xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif; color:black">2208 Mariner Dr.</span></p>
<p class="x_x_xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif; color:black">Fort Lauderdale, FL 33316</span></p>
<p class="x_x_xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif; color:black">(954) 903-1699</span></p>
<p class="x_x_xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif; color:black"><a href="mailto:katherine@koenigipworks.com">katherine@koenigipworks.com</a></span></p>
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<p class="x_x_xmsonormal"><i><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Candara",sans-serif; color:black">Targeted Intellectual Property Strategy</span></i></p>
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<p class="x_x_xmsonormal"><b>From:</b> Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com">patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>David Boundy via Patentpractice<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 6, 2023 7:15 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> For patent practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> David Boundy <<a href="mailto:DavidBoundyEsq@gmail.com">DavidBoundyEsq@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Patentpractice] New Examiner?</p>
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<p class="x_x_xmsonormal">Scott's 60% affirm rate isn't the whole story. Some years ago (like 15) I asked for ALL the statistics by Freedom of Information Act. When you add up --</p>
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<p class="x_x_xmsonormal"> -- reverse on pre-appeal</p>
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<p class="x_x_xmsonormal"> -- examiner can't write an Examiner's Answer and gives up</p>
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<p class="x_x_xmsonormal"> -- Board reverses</p>
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<p class="x_x_xmsonormal">the <b>win</b> rate is 70-80% The Board affirms only about 20% of appealed issues.</p>
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<p class="x_x_xmsonormal">This varies a lot by technology and issue. For example, the affirm rate for § 101
<i>Alice</i> issues is much higher than for § 112 and § 102/103</p>
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<p class="x_x_xmsonormal">On Tue, Dec 5, 2023 at 9:50 PM Scott Nielson via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> wrote:</p>
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<p class="x_x_xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif; color:black">Regarding PTAB stats, this
<a href="https://www.uspto.gov/patents/ptab/statistics" originalsrc="https://www.uspto.gov/patents/ptab/statistics" shash="LEn3ZNEptdrlROBPJT3VMRbBS9wEp4Ms+hr22Ob3/OKzBwUzNHXRXH22ClkST27xwmCHjOzQnMLxVkkkk0C5r/5MrAEqi26xg7Q2yiAXHss00xGDujc3qxqA5X1C7Pv2gLh66TVM9bYzl8swL1p0R8gOrqlw3UjsaS8UgRZ9Gs8=" originalsrc="https://www.uspto.gov/patents/ptab/statistics" shash="xwqsz/uhIoi6QxT8VPE0U5QgH0KzMbzEKXBKf0otsTy31UddvR+/zeRPPdH8AQjrVnPGGJ/hVLQEIGTeiiPW2IoCq5J0KOER5spV4DPUcJy9w6HnUfrWlX9Us3JvKeRAuCZ6u36yBKXfP753NVuWflYPVTeyF5mwFfvIGkB0UXE=" target="_blank" title="https://www.uspto.gov/patents/ptab/statistics">
page</a> has what you are looking for. In FY <a href="https://www.uspto.gov/sites/default/files/documents/fy23_appeal_receipts_and_dispositions_september2023_.pdf" originalsrc="https://www.uspto.gov/sites/default/files/documents/fy23_appeal_receipts_and_dispositions_september2023_.pdf" shash="F9QGFNbfkUaAoRnzqMVggOnp30Re/KUKNYxb/u6ZpRL7s23uxBwY4k7ESh5qT+UG6IfjjvXKGCkHeDoYHfpll76CSH/J4WYC/ydJn0HUXSBXYHo8diKnjhAUNqb2PCnsy0fUcobmNsVNZPUh/zW+6cs+v7sdiW5VN+vSICx+Yr8=" originalsrc="https://www.uspto.gov/sites/default/files/documents/fy23_appeal_receipts_and_dispositions_september2023_.pdf" shash="XUBUB9y/icMtCviJZVx5pupQD1v5DiBcbPLteA2lCpQYrj0sbySb0BCTTiDXUMZ1gO8ZVGsX7h4wL6pyOTSgJuRkhgh13b/MCEET6PKKVCLg3FX3LvxEFJKN2m37QHjCQguO23lzc5zo0dEfTn2OtDn6h3gblIseA1o+3ZH5914=" target="_blank" title="https://www.uspto.gov/sites/default/files/documents/fy23_appeal_receipts_and_dispositions_september2023_.pdf">
2023</a> (just ended in Sept), the PTAB affirmed the examiner 58.3% of the time, affirmed-in-part 9.1% of the time, and reversed 31.9% of the time.</span></p>
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<p class="x_x_xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="x_x_xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif; color:black">I file a lot of appeals and I've had good luck. However, I just lost one the other day where the PTAB rehabilitated the examiner's lousy rejections (complete with new grounds
of rejection for some of the dependent claims I thought we would for sure win on). It goes to show that there is always an element of uncertainty when you go to the Board. </span></p>
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<p><b><span style="font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif; color:#1F3864">Scott Nielson</span></b></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif; color:black">801-660-4400</span></p>
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<p class="x_x_xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="x_x_xmsonormal"><b><span style="color:black">From:</span></b><span style="color:black"> Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> on behalf of Katherine
Koenig via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 5, 2023 6:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a> <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Katherine Koenig <<a href="mailto:katherine@koenigipworks.com" target="_blank">katherine@koenigipworks.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Patentpractice] New Examiner?</span> </p>
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<p>Hi everyone,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I’m prosecuting a US-inbound case for a mechanical product. I’ve had a terrible go with the Examiner, who appears to be steered by his SPE’s opinion about the case. According to PatentBots, the Examiner has a 64% 3-year grant rate (slightly lower than
his art unit) and his SPE has a <b><u>0%</u> </b>3-year grant rate (slightly lower than [insert villain here]). The client is an FA, and he and his client are both really hoping for a better chance of patentability.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>My understanding is that there’s no way to request a different Examiner, and even DIVs, CONs, and CIPs are likely to be assigned to the same Examiner. The only way to get a different Examiner is to present claims that would move the application to a different
art unit. Is this correct? I hope someone has a magic strategy that I don’t know about!</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Statistically, does the PTAB uphold a rejection more often than it reverses? Any input or suggestions would be welcome, thank you!</p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif; color:black">Best regards,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif; color:black">Katherine</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif; color:black">Dr. Katherine Koenig</span></p>
<p><i><span style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif; color:black">Registered Patent Attorney</span></i></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif; color:black">Koenig IP Works, PLLC</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif; color:black">2208 Mariner Dr.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif; color:black">Fort Lauderdale, FL 33316</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif; color:black">(954) 903-1699</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif; color:blue"><a href="mailto:katherine@koenigipworks.com" target="_blank">katherine@koenigipworks.com</a></span></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black"><img border="0" width="182" height="49" id="x_x_x_m_-3321099755964758461x_Picture_x0020_2" style="width:1.8958in; height:.5069in" data-outlook-trace="F:2|T:2" src="cid:image001.png@01DA2875.566BA1F0"></span></p>
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