<div dir="ltr"><div>Here's a thought. Does anyone see a bug that I don't?<br></div><div><br></div><div>Step 1. File the PDF specification and PDF drawings as a provisional, just as you always have. Don't pay fees.</div><div><br></div><div>Step 2. An hour later, file your nonprovisional as a "filing by reference" filing.</div><div><br></div><div>It seems to work under the relevant statute and regulation --<br></div><div> 35 U.S.C. § 111(c) -- <a href="https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/35/111">https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/35/111</a> <br></div><div> 37 C.F.R. § 1.57(a) -- <a href="https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/37/1.57">https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/37/1.57</a></div><div>The Director can then require you to file a spec. <br></div><div><br></div><div>The incremental cost is the time to file the provisional, and the "late parts" surcharge of § 1.16(f). I don't see why you can't avoid the surcharge by filing the spec and drawings with the non-provisional, even though you click the "filing by reference" box -- the regulation says that if you BOTH click the "by reference" box and file the spec and drawings, the "by reference" wins. I don't think the non-provisional has to claim priority to the provisional -- all you care about it having it in some office's equivalent of PAIR so you can "by reference" to it. So you don't have to pay the fees for the provisional.<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 22, 2023 at 9:37 AM Timothy Snowden via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div>
<p>Also, even if they did accept it, wouldn't they degrade the DOCX
figures (because you can't tag the Spec as
non-black-and-white-figures)?</p>
<p>I have thought of uploading an Appendix (copy of Spec) as
non-black-and-white FIGURES, that way it's literally incorporated
by reference into the application, and part of the application
body if needed.<br>
</p>
<p>On 12/21/2023 3:47 PM, Stephen M. Nipper via Patentpractice
wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Brilliant, but I'm not sure that such a .docx would
pass the upload verification. For example, there's a defined
error/warning for:
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">FIGURES_IN_SPECIFICATION
Figures have been detected in the
specification. Please review and revise if
necessary.</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This has a list of the errors/warnings: <a href="https://www.uspto.gov/sites/default/files/documents/DOCX_Feedback_Errors_and_Warnings.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.uspto.gov/sites/default/files/documents/DOCX_Feedback_Errors_and_Warnings.pdf</a>.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Steve</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at
2:16 PM David Boundy via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>So what are the options for passive aggressive
compliance that forces the PTO to use the PDF just as they
always have?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ten years ago, there was a way to open a PDF, and "Save
as Word" and what you'd get was pages that were each
bitmap images, just stored in a .doc container instead of
in a .pdf container. Totally useless. Ten years ago, I
had a legal assistant that would do that -- which drove me
crazy at the time, Now it's PERFECT.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at
3:59 PM Carl Oppedahl via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On
12/21/2023 1:29 PM, Tim Ackermann via Patentcenter wrote:<br>
> What if I accidentally filed PDF images of my
Abstract, Specification, <br>
> and Claims as "Figures, other than black &
white"? And then amended <br>
> the drawings to remove those accidental images?<br>
<br>
I am migrating this over to the Patent Practice listserv
which is the <br>
right place for it.<br>
<br>
The Patentcenter listserv is for bugs and feature requests
and <br>
workarounds relating to Patent Center.<br>
<br>
Now to return to the topic.<br>
<br>
So what we are talking about is the process of submitting
a trusted PDF <br>
along with the untrusted Microsoft Word file. The reason
for handing in <br>
the untrusted Microsoft Word file is to avoid having to
pay the $400 <br>
penalty. The reason for handing in the trusted PDF file
is, well, <br>
because it can actually be trusted.<br>
<br>
Except not. The first thing that the USPTO does with your
trusted PDF <br>
is dismember it into TIF images, one per PDF page. And
then the USPTO <br>
carries out halftoning and resizing. This is the native
storage format <br>
in IFW. Later if you click to see your trusted PDF, you
will find that <br>
what IFW gives back to you as a PDF is not bit-for-bit the
same as the <br>
PDF that you uploaded. The PDF that the IFW gives back to
you will, <br>
among other things, have a non-identical message digest
(hash).<br>
<br>
So yes, it seems to me that the filer who wants to avoid
the harm caused <br>
by the halftoning and resizing would definitely want to
index the <br>
trusted PDF as "non-black-and-white drawings". That way
the PDF is <br>
preserved bit-for-bit.<br>
<br>
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