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</head>
<body lang="EN-US" link="#467886" vlink="#96607D" style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I come to the same conclusions as you do based on the fact pattern presented.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">And I am quite certain that there is no requirement for different inventors in the 102(b)(2) exceptions.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">-Bruce Young<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">(712) 541-9822<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Patentpractice <patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Timothy Snowden via Patentpractice<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 29, 2024 1:30 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> For patent practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Timothy Snowden <Timothy@thompsonpatentlaw.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Patentpractice] Prior Art Question re: intersection of incorporation by reference and priority<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Just to clarify, I simplified the hypothetical fact pattern while drafting the email and forgot to edit to say Provisional B disclosed subject matter B. (ignore
the A, D, and E part). Here's the corrected fact pattern:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Hypothetical Fact Pattern:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;list-style-type:"1) "">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Provisional Application A is filed 1/1/2017 containing subject matter A<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
</div>
<div>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="1" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">PCT A is filed 12/31/2017<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
</ol>
</div>
<div>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">US application A is duly filed and matures to patent<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
</ol>
</div>
<div>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="a">
<ol start="1" type="i">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo1">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">claims are amended to further limit to variation A1 that excludes variation A2<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
</div>
<div>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="a">
<ol start="2" type="i">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo1">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">no continuation pending, broadening reissue date is past<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
</div>
<div>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;list-style-type:"2) "">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Provisional Application B is filed 1/1/2018 (1 day after PCT A is filed, and within 1 year of Provisional A) describing subject matter B but ALSO
<b><i>incorporating PCT A by reference</i></b><o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">(nothing has been published from family A before Provisional B is filed)</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="1" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">PCT B is duly filed<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
</ol>
</div>
<div>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">US application B is duly filed
<i>and is still pending </i>– claiming subject matter B (close relationship and roughly same physical structure to subject matter A, but different application / operation / optimization) – for this scenario, we don't care what happens to subject matter B.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
</ol>
</div>
<div>
<ol start="3" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;list-style-type:"3) "">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">CONTINUATION US Application B1 is filed (properly claiming priority to have an effective filing date of 1/1/2018)
<i>making use of the incorporation by reference to draw into the specification the description of subject matter A
</i>from PCT A --- and specifically claim variation A2 (excluded from claims in US patent A).<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
</div>
<div>
<ol start="3" type="1">
<ol start="1" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">There is NO priority claim to the "A" family.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
</ol>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">NOTE: Assume all applications have at least 1 common inventor, and all applications are owned by the same entity. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Question:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l4 level1 lfo2">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Can any of the "A" family applications be used as prior art against the "B1" continuation application to reject the claim to subject matter variation A2? (other than double-patenting – which is
fine)<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">My current thinking:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Family A is not prior art to Continuation B1 under 35 USC 102(a)(1) because it was not<i> published</i> prior to filing<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
</div>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Family A <i>is </i>
prior art to Continuation B1 under 35 USC 102(a)(2) (because of 35 USC 102(d)) because it
<i>has</i> been published by now (35 USC 122b) AND has an effective filing date (1/1/2017) prior to that of Continuation B1 (1/1/2018).<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Family A falls under the EXCEPTION in 35 USC 102(b)(2) because the applications are commonly owned by 1/1/2018.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">(NOTE: I found one commentator that indicated there had to be different inventors for this exception, but I can't find that supported in the text?)</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I don't think the Paris Convention or PCT modifies this finding because:<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<ul type="disc">
<ul type="circle">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo3">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">the priority claims were all proper for the various national stage applications<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
</ul>
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<div>
<ul type="disc">
<ul type="circle">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo3">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">this is a 'regular' US Continuation now under US law, properly claiming priority through the "US application in the PCT B bundle" to the Provisional B – therefore, 35 USC 102(b)(2) (taking into
account 35 USC 102(d), which contemplates PCT priority) excludes the prior application as prior art.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
</ul>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Where are the holes in this line of thought?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Thanks!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com">patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
on behalf of Timothy Snowden via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 29, 2024 1:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a> <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Timothy Snowden <<a href="mailto:Timothy@thompsonpatentlaw.com">Timothy@thompsonpatentlaw.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Patentpractice] Prior Art Question re: intersection of incorporation by reference and priority</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I have a hypothetical that seems to be coming out one way, but I'm not trusting the outcome based on my reading of the law (as well as commentary). More specifically,
I want to run my thought process by the group and see if I'm not thinking of an additional relevant code that may change the outcome.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Hypothetical Fact Pattern:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<ol start="4" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo4;list-style-type:"4) "">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Provisional Application A is filed 1/1/2017 containing subject matter A<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
</div>
<div>
<ol start="4" type="1">
<ol start="1" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3 level2 lfo4">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">PCT A is filed 12/31/2017<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
</ol>
</div>
<div>
<ol start="4" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3 level2 lfo4">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">US application A is duly filed and matures to patent<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
</ol>
</div>
<div>
<ol start="4" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="a">
<ol start="1" type="i">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3 level3 lfo4">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">claims are amended to further limit to variation A1 that excludes variation A2<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
</div>
<div>
<ol start="4" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="a">
<ol start="2" type="i">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3 level3 lfo4">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">no continuation pending, broadening reissue date is past<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
</div>
<div>
<ol start="5" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo4;list-style-type:"5) "">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Provisional Application B is filed 1/1/2018 (1 day after PCT A is filed, and within 1 year of Provisional A) describing subject matter A, D, and E but ALSO
<b><i>incorporating PCT A by reference</i></b><o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">(nothing has been published from family A before Provisional B is filed)</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ol start="5" type="1">
<ol start="1" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3 level2 lfo4">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">PCT B is duly filed<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
</ol>
</div>
<div>
<ol start="5" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3 level2 lfo4">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">US application B is duly filed
<i>and is still pending </i>– claiming subject matter B (close relationship and roughly same physical structure to subject matter A, but different application / operation / optimization) – for this scenario, we don't care what happens to subject matter B.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
</ol>
</div>
<div>
<ol start="6" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo4;list-style-type:"6) "">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">CONTINUATION US Application B1 is filed (properly claiming priority to have an effective filing date of 1/1/2018)
<i>making use of the incorporation by reference to draw into the specification the description of features B & C
</i>from PCT A --- and CLAIM A, B, and C – specifically claiming variation C2.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
</div>
<div>
<ol start="6" type="1">
<ol start="1" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3 level2 lfo4">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">There is NO priority claim to the "A" family.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
</ol>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">NOTE: Assume all applications have at least 1 common inventor, and all applications are owned by the same entity. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Question:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo5">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Can any of the "A" family applications be used as prior art against the "B1" continuation application to reject the claim to subject matter variation A2? (other than double-patenting – which is
fine)<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">My current thinking:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo6">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Family A is not prior art to Continuation B1 under 35 USC 102(a)(1) because it was not<i> published</i> prior to filing<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
</div>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo6">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Family A <i>is </i>
prior art to Continuation B1 under 35 USC 102(a)(2) (because of 35 USC 102(d)) because it
<i>has</i> been published by now (35 USC 122b) AND has an effective filing date (1/1/2017) prior to that of Continuation B1 (1/1/2018).<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
</div>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo6">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Family A falls under the EXCEPTION in 35 USC 102(b)(2) because the applications are commonly owned by 1/1/2018.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">(NOTE: I found one commentator that indicated there had to be different inventors for this exception, but I can't find that supported in the text?)</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo6">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I don't think the Paris Convention or PCT modifies this finding because:<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
</div>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<ul type="circle">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l5 level2 lfo6">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">the priority claims were all proper for the various national stage applications<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
</ul>
</div>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<ul type="circle">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l5 level2 lfo6">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">this is a 'regular' US Continuation now under US law, properly claiming priority through the "US application in the PCT B bundle" to the Provisional B – therefore, 35 USC 102(b)(2) (taking into
account 35 USC 102(d), which contemplates PCT priority) excludes the prior application as prior art.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
</ul>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Where are the holes in this line of thought?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Thanks!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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