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Just to clarify, I simplified the hypothetical fact pattern while drafting the email and forgot to edit to say Provisional B disclosed subject matter B. (ignore the A, D, and E part). Here's the corrected fact pattern:</div>
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<div class="elementToProof"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Hypothetical Fact Pattern:</span></div>
<ol data-editing-info="{"orderedStyleType":3,"unorderedStyleType":1}" style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">
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<div style="direction: ltr; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Provisional Application A is filed 1/1/2017 containing subject matter A</span></div>
</li><ol style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; list-style-type: lower-alpha;">
<li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div style="direction: ltr; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">PCT A is filed 12/31/2017</span></div>
</li><li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div style="direction: ltr; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">US application A is duly filed and matures to patent</span></div>
</li><ol style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; list-style-type: lower-roman;">
<li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div style="direction: ltr; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">claims are amended to further limit to variation A1 that excludes variation A2</span></div>
</li><li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div style="direction: ltr; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">no continuation pending, broadening reissue date is past</span></div>
</li></ol>
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<li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); list-style-type: "2) ";">
<div class="elementToProof" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Provisional Application B is filed 1/1/2018 (1 day after PCT A is filed, and within 1 year of Provisional
A) describing subject matter B but ALSO <b><i>incorporating PCT A by reference</i></b></span></div>
<div style="direction: ltr; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b>(nothing has been published from family A before Provisional B is filed)</b></span></div>
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<div class="elementToProof" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">PCT B is duly filed</span></div>
</li><li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div class="elementToProof" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">US application B is duly filed
<i>and is still pending </i> claiming subject matter B (close relationship and roughly same physical structure to subject matter A, but different application / operation / optimization) for this scenario, we don't care what happens to subject matter B.</span></div>
</li></ol>
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<div class="elementToProof" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">CONTINUATION US Application B1 is filed (properly claiming priority to have an effective filing
date of 1/1/2018) <i>making use of the incorporation by reference to draw into the specification the description of subject matter A
</i>from PCT A --- and specifically claim variation A2 (excluded from claims in US patent A).</span></div>
</li><ol style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; list-style-type: lower-alpha;">
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<div style="direction: ltr; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">There is NO priority claim to the "A" family.</span></div>
</li></ol>
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<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">NOTE: Assume all applications have at least 1 common inventor, and all applications
are owned by the same entity. </span></div>
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</span></div>
<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Question:</span></div>
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<div style="direction: ltr; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Can any of the "A" family applications be used as prior art against the "B1" continuation application to reject the claim
to subject matter variation A2? (other than double-patenting which is fine)</span></div>
</li></ul>
<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">My current thinking:</span></div>
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<div style="direction: ltr; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Family A is not prior art to Continuation B1 under 35 USC 102(a)(1) because it was not<i> published</i> prior to filing</span></div>
</li><li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div style="direction: ltr; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Family A
<i>is </i>prior art to Continuation B1 under 35 USC 102(a)(2) (because of 35 USC 102(d)) because it
<i>has</i> been published by now (35 USC 122b) AND has an effective filing date (1/1/2017) prior to that of Continuation B1 (1/1/2018).</span></div>
</li><li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div style="direction: ltr; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Family A falls under the EXCEPTION in 35 USC 102(b)(2) because the applications are commonly owned by 1/1/2018.</span></div>
<div style="direction: ltr; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><i>(NOTE: I found one commentator that indicated there had to be different inventors for this exception, but I can't find
that supported in the text?)</i></span></div>
</li><li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div style="direction: ltr; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">I don't think the Paris Convention or PCT modifies this finding because:</span></div>
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<li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div style="direction: ltr; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">the priority claims were all proper for the various national stage applications</span></div>
</li><li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div style="direction: ltr; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">this is a 'regular' US Continuation now under US law, properly claiming priority through the "US application in the PCT
B bundle" to the Provisional B therefore, 35 USC 102(b)(2) (taking into account 35 USC 102(d), which contemplates PCT priority) excludes the prior application as prior art.</span></div>
</li></ul>
</ul>
<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Where are the holes in this line of thought?</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Thanks!</span></div>
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<div dir="ltr" id="divRplyFwdMsg"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b>From:</b> Patentpractice <patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com> on behalf of Timothy Snowden via Patentpractice <patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 29, 2024 1:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com <patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Timothy Snowden <Timothy@thompsonpatentlaw.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Patentpractice] Prior Art Question re: intersection of incorporation by reference and priority</span>
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I have a hypothetical that seems to be coming out one way, but I'm not trusting the outcome based on my reading of the law (as well as commentary). More specifically, I want to run my thought process by the group and see if I'm not thinking of an additional
relevant code that may change the outcome.</div>
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Hypothetical Fact Pattern:</div>
<ol start="4" data-editing-info="{"orderedStyleType":3,"unorderedStyleType":1}" style="direction: ltr; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">
<li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); list-style-type: "4) ";">
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Provisional Application A is filed 1/1/2017 containing subject matter A</span></div>
</li><ol style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; list-style-type: lower-alpha;">
<li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">PCT A is filed 12/31/2017</span></div>
</li><li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div class="elementToProof" style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">US application A is duly filed and matures to patent</span></div>
</li><ol style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; list-style-type: lower-roman;">
<li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">claims are amended to further limit to variation A1 that excludes variation A2</span></div>
</li><li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">no continuation pending, broadening reissue date is past</span></div>
</li></ol>
</ol>
<li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); list-style-type: "5) ";">
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Provisional Application B is filed 1/1/2018 (1 day after PCT A is filed, and within 1 year of Provisional A) describing subject matter
A, D, and E but ALSO <b><i>incorporating PCT A by reference</i></b></span></div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b>(nothing has been published from family A before Provisional B is filed)</b></span></div>
</li><ol style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; list-style-type: lower-alpha;">
<li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">PCT B is duly filed</span></div>
</li><li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">US application B is duly filed
<i>and is still pending </i> claiming subject matter B (close relationship and roughly same physical structure to subject matter A, but different application / operation / optimization) for this scenario, we don't care what happens to subject matter B.</span></div>
</li></ol>
<li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); list-style-type: "6) ";">
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">CONTINUATION US Application B1 is filed (properly claiming priority to have an effective filing date of 1/1/2018)
<i>making use of the incorporation by reference to draw into the specification the description of features B & C
</i>from PCT A --- and CLAIM A, B, and C specifically claiming variation C2.</span></div>
</li><ol style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; list-style-type: lower-alpha;">
<li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">There is NO priority claim to the "A" family.</span></div>
</li></ol>
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NOTE: Assume all applications have at least 1 common inventor, and all applications are owned by the same entity. </div>
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Question:</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Can any of the "A" family applications be used as prior art against the "B1" continuation application to reject the claim to subject
matter variation A2? (other than double-patenting which is fine)</span></div>
</li></ul>
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My current thinking:</div>
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<li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Family A is not prior art to Continuation B1 under 35 USC 102(a)(1) because it was not<i> published</i> prior to filing</span></div>
</li><li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Family A
<i>is </i>prior art to Continuation B1 under 35 USC 102(a)(2) (because of 35 USC 102(d)) because it
<i>has</i> been published by now (35 USC 122b) AND has an effective filing date (1/1/2017) prior to that of Continuation B1 (1/1/2018).</span></div>
</li><li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Family A falls under the EXCEPTION in 35 USC 102(b)(2) because the applications are commonly owned by 1/1/2018.</span></div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><i>(NOTE: I found one commentator that indicated there had to be different inventors for this exception, but I can't find that supported
in the text?)</i></span></div>
</li><li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">I don't think the Paris Convention or PCT modifies this finding because:</span></div>
</li><ul style="direction: ltr; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; list-style-type: circle;">
<li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">the priority claims were all proper for the various national stage applications</span></div>
</li><li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">this is a 'regular' US Continuation now under US law, properly claiming priority through the "US application in the PCT B bundle" to
the Provisional B therefore, 35 USC 102(b)(2) (taking into account 35 USC 102(d), which contemplates PCT priority) excludes the prior application as prior art.</span></div>
</li></ul>
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Where are the holes in this line of thought?</div>
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Thanks!</div>
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