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Good point Rick – the assumption would be correct. In this hypothetical, PCT application duly entered national stage in both applications: Family A issued and Family B remained pending.</div>
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<div dir="ltr" id="divRplyFwdMsg"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b>From:</b> Patentpractice <patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com> on behalf of Rick Neifeld via Patentpractice <patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 29, 2024 3:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com <patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Rick Neifeld <rneifeld@neifeld.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Patentpractice] Prior Art Question re: intersection of incorporation by reference and priority</span>
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<div style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman";">Review your emails and the responses from Scott and Bruce I note that you stated "</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">US
application A is duly filed and matures to patent" and you stated "US application B is duly filed and remains pending."<br>
I assume that Scott and Bruce assumed what you meant was that PCT application A entered the US national stage and issued into a US patent, and that PCT application B entered the US national stage and remains pending.<br>
However, your stated facts do not say that.<br>
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<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Best regards, Rick Neifeld, Ph.D., Patent Attorney<br>
Neifeld IP Law PLLC<br>
9112 Shearman Street, Fairfax VA 22032-1479, United States<br>
Office: 1-7034150012<br>
Mobile: 1-7034470727<br>
Fax: 1-5712810045<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:rneifeld@neifeld.com" id="OWAaf30f574-5106-9eb2-b6a9-dd72aa15b213" class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext OWAAutoLink" data-loopstyle="linkonly" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">
rneifeld@neifeld.com</a><br>
and <a href="mailto:richardneifeld@gmail.com" id="OWA9a6d65c1-997b-5cd6-75ad-d7ea78083fd1" class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext OWAAutoLink" data-loopstyle="linkonly" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">
richardneifeld@gmail.com</a><br>
Web: <a href="https://neifeld.com/" id="OWA0140ad78-f883-60e6-f6cc-8092e68c1930" class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext OWAAutoLink" data-auth="Verified" data-loopstyle="linkonly" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">
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This is a confidential communication of counsel. If you are not the intended recipient, delete this email and notify the sender that you did so.</p>
<div>On 2/29/2024 2:21 PM, Timothy Snowden via Patentpractice wrote:</div>
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I have a hypothetical that seems to be coming out one way, but I'm not trusting the outcome based on my reading of the law (as well as commentary). More specifically, I want to run my thought process by the group and see if I'm not thinking of an additional
relevant code that may change the outcome.</div>
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Hypothetical Fact Pattern:</div>
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<li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); list-style-type: "1) ";">
<div><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Provisional Application A is filed 1/1/2017 containing subject matter A</span></div>
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<div><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">PCT A is filed 12/31/2017</span></div>
</li><li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">US application A is duly filed and matures to patent</span></div>
</li><ol start="1" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; list-style-type: lower-roman;">
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<div><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">claims are amended to further limit to variation A1 that excludes variation A2</span></div>
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<div><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">no continuation pending, broadening reissue date is past</span></div>
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<li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); list-style-type: "2) ";">
<div><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Provisional Application B is filed 1/1/2018 (1 day after PCT A is filed, and within 1 year of Provisional A) describing subject matter A, D, and E but ALSO
<b><i>incorporating PCT A by reference</i></b></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b>(nothing has been published from family A before Provisional B is filed)</b></span></div>
</li><ol start="1" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; list-style-type: lower-alpha;">
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<div><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">PCT B is duly filed</span></div>
</li><li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">US application B is duly filed
<i>and is still pending </i>– claiming subject matter B (close relationship and roughly same physical structure to subject matter A, but different application / operation / optimization) – for this scenario, we don't care what happens to subject matter B.</span></div>
</li></ol>
<li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); list-style-type: "3) ";">
<div><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">CONTINUATION US Application B1 is filed (properly claiming priority to have an effective filing date of 1/1/2018)
<i>making use of the incorporation by reference to draw into the specification the description of features B & C
</i>from PCT A --- and CLAIM A, B, and C – specifically claiming variation C2.</span></div>
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<div><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">There is NO priority claim to the "A" family.</span></div>
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NOTE: Assume all applications have at least 1 common inventor, and all applications are owned by the same entity. </div>
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Question:</div>
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<div><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Can any of the "A" family applications be used as prior art against the "B1" continuation application to reject the claim to subject matter variation A2? (other
than double-patenting – which is fine)</span></div>
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My current thinking:</div>
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<div><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Family A is not prior art to Continuation B1 under 35 USC 102(a)(1) because it was not<i> published</i> prior to filing</span></div>
</li><li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Family A
<i>is </i>prior art to Continuation B1 under 35 USC 102(a)(2) (because of 35 USC 102(d)) because it
<i>has</i> been published by now (35 USC 122b) AND has an effective filing date (1/1/2017) prior to that of Continuation B1 (1/1/2018).</span></div>
</li><li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Family A falls under the EXCEPTION in 35 USC 102(b)(2) because the applications are commonly owned by 1/1/2018.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><i>(NOTE: I found one commentator that indicated there had to be different inventors for this exception, but I can't find that supported in the text?)</i></span></div>
</li><li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">I don't think the Paris Convention or PCT modifies this finding because:</span></div>
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<div><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">the priority claims were all proper for the various national stage applications</span></div>
</li><li style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">this is a 'regular' US Continuation now under US law, properly claiming priority through the "US application in the PCT B bundle" to the Provisional B – therefore,
35 USC 102(b)(2) (taking into account 35 USC 102(d), which contemplates PCT priority) excludes the prior application as prior art.</span></div>
</li></ul>
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Where are the holes in this line of thought?</div>
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Thanks!</div>
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