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<font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">I agree with Suzannah and
follow a similar approach. However, I could dream up some fringe
cases where the patent attorney has particular expertise similar
to that of the inventors and the patent attorney notices, for
example, an enablement problem/issue that involves a detailed
discussion back and forth until a solution is arrived at, and
thereby results in the possibility of the patent attorney being a
co-inventor. In such a rare case, I saw it happen once in 30+
years (not involving me but, a colleague), and Carl's approach was
used to address it.<br>
<br>
</font>
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</style><span class="c1"><strong>Richard Straussman</strong></span><span
class="c3"><span class="c2"><strong><br>
</strong></span> </span><strong><span class="c4">Senior
Counsel</span><span class="c5"><strong><br>
</strong></span> <span class="c6">Registered Patent Attorney</span><span
class="c5"><br>
</span></strong> <span class="c6">Member NY, NJ & CT Bars</span><span
class="c5"><br>
</span> <span class="c7"><strong>. . . . . . . . . . . . . .</strong></span>
<span class="c8"></span> <span class="c5"><br>
</span> <span class="c9"><strong>Weitzman Law Offices, LLC</strong></span><span
class="c16"><span class="c5"><br>
</span> <span class="c9"><strong>Intellectual Property Law</strong></span><span
class="c9"><br>
</span> <span class="c4">425 Eagle Rock Avenue, Suite 401</span><span
class="c5"><br>
</span> <span class="c4">Roseland, NJ 07068</span><span
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class="c6"></span> <span class="c13"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rstraussman@weitzmanip.com">rstraussman@weitzmanip.com</a></span><span
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</span> <span class="c14"><strong><a
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class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://www.weitzmanip.com</a><br>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/9/2024 3:40 PM, Suzannah K.
Sundby via Patentpractice wrote:<br>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I\u2019d
also question whether the patent attorney is truly a \u201cjoint\u201d
inventor, i.e., worked in \u2018collaboration\u2019, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Imho,
patent attorneys should never
<i>write themselves in</i> as an inventor.<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>
After all, it is our job to write what the inventors
envision is their invention, not what we think the inventors
want to invent.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">If
a patent attorney has a question as to whether a particular
embodiment/application/combination is contemplated by the
inventors and should therefore be included as a claim, the
patent attorney should ask as the inventors a <i>leading</i>
question, e.g., Do you envision that this could be \u2026 ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Sometimes
they say something that\u2019s a great idea or yes, that\u2019s how it
could be implemented\u2026<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>I then correct them and say it is what I understood
from their own disclosure and/or I didn\u2019t know whether it
would work or not which is why I asked, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black;mso-no-proof:yes"><a
href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ssundby/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:black;text-decoration:none;text-underline:none">Suzannah K.
Sundby</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-no-proof:yes">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span
style="color:#0000CC">|</span></b> Partner<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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href="http://www.canadylortz.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"><u
style="text-underline:#0000C8"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:#0000CC;text-underline:#0000C8;text-decoration:none;text-underline:none">canady
+ lortz</span></u><u style="text-underline:#0000C8"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:#0000CC;text-underline:#0000C8;text-decoration:none;text-underline:none">
<span style="font-variant:small-caps">LLP</span></span></u></a></span><span
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style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-no-proof:yes">1050
30th Street, NW<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-no-proof:yes">Washington,
DC 20007<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-no-proof:yes">T:
202.486.8020<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-no-proof:yes">F:
202.540.8020<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:4.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;mso-ascii-font-family:Aptos;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-hansi-font-family:Aptos;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#0000CC;mso-no-proof:yes"><a
href="mailto:suzannah@canadylortz.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:#0000CC;text-decoration:none;text-underline:none">suzannah@canadylortz.com</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#0000CC;mso-no-proof:yes"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:#0000CC;text-decoration:none;text-underline:none">www.canadylortz.com</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#0000CC;mso-no-proof:yes"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#7F7F7F;mso-no-proof:yes">Confidentiality
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<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"">
Patentpractice
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com"><patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com></a> <b>On
Behalf Of </b>David Boundy via Patentpractice<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 9, 2024 1:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> For patent practitioners. This is not for
laypersons to seek legal advice.
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com"><patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> David Boundy <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:PatentProcedure@gmail.com"><PatentProcedure@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Patentpractice] Patent lawyer as
inventor on client's application?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">My
view is that you should not name yourself inventor
without a Really Good Reason. Here are the reasons
that you should not name yourself as inventor:</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="gmail-listoutdent1typedletter-number"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:2.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in">
<span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">\u25cf
If you are merely the attorney, not the inventor, you
are unlikely to be called for deposition\u2014attorneys
generally don\u2019t get deposed unless there\u2019s some smell
of inequitable conduct in the air first.<a
name="_ftnref1" moz-do-not-send="true"></a><a
href="#_ftn1" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="mso-bookmark:_ftnref1"><span
class="gmail-msofootnotereference"><sup>[1]</sup></span></span><span
style="mso-bookmark:_ftnref1"></span></a><span
style="mso-bookmark:_ftnref1"> However, if you are
a named inventor, you <i>will</i> be deposed. And
once you\u2019re in the hot seat in your role as
inventor, the scope of questions that you can be
asked has little bound, including \u201cfishing
expedition\u201d questions for inequitable conduct that
couldn\u2019t be asked if you weren\u2019t already there.<a
name="_ftnref2" moz-do-not-send="true"></a></span><a
href="#_ftn2" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="mso-bookmark:_ftnref1"><span
style="mso-bookmark:_ftnref2"><span
class="gmail-msofootnotereference"><sup>[2]</sup></span></span></span><span
style="mso-bookmark:_ftnref1"><span
style="mso-bookmark:_ftnref2"></span></span></a></span><span
style="mso-bookmark:_ftnref2"></span><span
style="mso-bookmark:_ftnref1"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="gmail-listoutdent1typedletter-number"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:2.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="mso-bookmark:_ftnref1"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">\u25cf
When a statement of fact made solely as
<i>attorney argument</i> is erroneous without
intent, it\u2019s not inequitable conduct.<a
name="_ftnref3" moz-do-not-send="true"></a></span></span><a
href="#_ftn3" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="mso-bookmark:_ftnref1"><span
style="mso-bookmark:_ftnref3"><span
class="gmail-msofootnotereference"><sup><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">[3]</span></sup></span></span></span><span
style="mso-bookmark:_ftnref1"><span
style="mso-bookmark:_ftnref3"></span></span></a><span
style="mso-bookmark:_ftnref3"></span><span
style="mso-bookmark:_ftnref1"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">
However, if you are the inventor, the same argument
could be an <i>inventor\u2019s statement</i>, and that
statement might be evaluated for inequitable conduct
on a far different standard.</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="gmail-listoutdent1typedletter-number"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:2.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="mso-bookmark:_ftnref1"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">\u25cf
As a person that is likely to become a witness, you
are disqualified from representing the client in any
litigation. The disqualification may extend to your
firm.</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_ftnref1"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">While
the Federal Circuit has not explicitly blessed the
practice, it has at least told district courts not
to invalidate such patents under old § 102(f) (\u201cA
person shall be entitled to a patent unless \u2026 he did
not himself invent the subject matter sought to be
patented.\u201d), nor to correct inventorship under
§ 256:</span></span><a href="#_ftn1"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="mso-bookmark:_ftnref1"><span
class="gmail-msofootnotereference"><sup><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">[4]</span></sup></span></span><span
style="mso-bookmark:_ftnref1"></span></a><span
style="mso-bookmark:_ftnref1"></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="gmail-msoblocktext"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:3.0pt;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in">
<span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">\u2026
An attorney\u2019s professional responsibility is to assist
his or her client in defining her invention to obtain,
if possible, a valid patent with maximum coverage. An
attorney performing that role should not be a
competitor of the client, asserting his inventorship
as a result of representing his client. Thus, to
assert that proper performance of the attorney\u2019s role
is a ground for invalidating the patent constitutes a
failure to understand the proper role of the patent
attorney.</span><span
style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br
style="mso-special-character:line-break" clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<hr width="33%" size="1" align="left">
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<hr width="33%" size="1" align="left">
</div>
<div id="gmail-ftn1">
<p class="gmail-msofootnotetext"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:2.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:0in">
<a name="_ftn1" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span class="gmail-msofootnotereference"><sup>[1]</sup></span>
<i>Ring Plus Inc v Cingular Wireless Corp.</i>,
614 F.3d 1354, ___, 6 USPQ2d 1022, ___ (Fed.
Cir. 2010) (material misstatement in Background
was material to inequitable conduct, but did not
establish intent to deceive); Taltech Ltd v
Esquel Ents Ltd., 604 F3d 1324, ___, 95 USPQ2d
1257, ___ (Fed. Cir. 2010) (inequitable conduct
& atty fees in undisclosed prior art, atty
misstatement; intent inferred from circumstance
& lack evidence of good faith).<o:p></o:p></span></a></p>
</div>
<div id="gmail-ftn2">
<p class="gmail-msofootnotetext"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:2.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:0in">
<span style="mso-bookmark:_ftn1"><a name="_ftn2"
moz-do-not-send="true"></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span class="gmail-msofootnotereference"><sup>[2]</sup></span>
Exergen Corp v Wal-Mart Stores Inc., 575 F3d
1312, ___, 91 USPQ2d 1656, ___ (Fed. Cir. 2009)
(FRCP 9(b) pleading of inequitable conduct reqs
specific who, what, when, where and how,
including facts implying intent).<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
</div>
<div id="gmail-ftn3">
<p class="gmail-msofootnotetext"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:2.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:0in">
<span style="mso-bookmark:_ftn1"><a name="_ftn3"
moz-do-not-send="true"></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span class="gmail-msofootnotereference"><sup>[3]</sup></span>
<i>Intirtool Ltd v Texar Corp.</i>, 369 F3d
1289, ___, 70 USPQ2d 1780, ___ (Fed. Cir. 2004)
(inequitable conduct of faulty prosecution
arguments);
<i>Norian Corp v Stryker Corp.</i>, 363 F3d
1321, 70 USPQ2d 1508 (Fed. Cir. 2004)
(inequitable conduct of faulty prosecution
arguments);
<i>CFMT Inc v Yieldup Int\u2019l Corp.</i>, 349 F3d
1333, ___, 68 USPQ2d 1940, ___ (Fed. Cir. 2003)
(inequitable conduct of faulty prosecution
arguments);
<i>Transonic Systems Inc v Non-Invasive Medical
Technologies Corp.</i>, 75 Fed.Appx. 765 (Fed.
Cir. 2003) (unpublished) (inequitable conduct of
faulty prosecution arguments);
<i>Gambro Lundia AB v Baxter Healthcare Corp</i>,
110 F3d 1573, ___, 42 USPQ2d 1378, ___ (Fed.
Cir. 1997).<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_ftn1">
<hr width="33%" size="1" align="left">
</span></div>
<span style="mso-bookmark:_ftn1"></span>
<div id="gmail-ftn1">
<p class="gmail-msofootnotetext"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:2.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:0in">
<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span class="gmail-msofootnotereference">
<sup>[4]</sup></span> <i>Solomon v.
Kimberly-Clark Corp.</i>, 216 F.3d 1372, 1382,
55 USPQ2d 1279, 1285 (Fed. Cir. 2000).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br
style="mso-special-character:line-break" clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Dec 9, 2024 at 1:40<span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">\u202f</span>PM
Carl Oppedahl via Patentpractice <<a
href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid #CCCCCC .75pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p>I have had this happen half a dozen times over the
years. I send the standard email "here are the claims,
please look at them and tell me if we have named all of
the inventors" and next thing you know, I am told I am a
co-inventor.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>When this happens, I simply sign a declaration and
asssignment, record the assignment, and give it no
further thought.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Yes I suppose one could concoct situations where (for
example) a malfeasant patent attorney could
intentionally slip a "not" into the assignment, or could
intentionally do something or another during prosecution
that would somehow favor the attorney. To the extent
that one decides that such risks would need to be
somehow addressed, yes one cannot imagine any approach
other than transferring everything about the case
(including the assignment task) to separate counsel.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>One imagines the client would get stuck paying lots of
money to new counsel for them to spend the time needed
gain familiarity with the file.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I guess I have sort of assumed that if I can be trusted
not to screw over the client in the handling of the file
in general (before I was identified as a co-inventor), I
ought to be able to be trusted not to screw over the
client in the remaining tasks. But you raise valid
questions that I have never thought about.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 12/9/2024 1:03 PM, Patent Lawyer
via Patentpractice wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">What issues /
concerns are there with a patent attorney being
named an inventor on their client's patent
application?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Assume that
the attorney will assign all rights in the invention
to the client/applicant, should the attorney advise
them to have someone else handle the assignment?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
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