<div dir="auto"><div>On Jeff's facts, and after Solomon says there's no need to name the attorney as inventor--a pretty clear carveout from the classical law of inventorship--what's the potential advantage of naming the attorney as inventor?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I can tell you the risks. Whats the advantage?<br><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 10, 2024, 8:40 AM Jeffrey Semprebon via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Where I've had this issue arise has been where, while drafting the application, I've seen either a way to work around the narrower claims based on the inventor's disclosed embodiments or a way to accomplish the same functional limitation with a simpler structure than used by the inventors (or both). <br><br>Suppose that the client likes whatever modification/alternative well enough to put it into a dependent claim, and then during examination it turns out that such limitation is needed to distinguish over prior art found by the examiner. In that case, does failing to name the practitioner as inventor invite any risk if the named inventors will have to truthfully state during depositions that the practitioner was the one who thought of that limitation?<div><br></div><div><span style="font-family:Roboto,Arial,sans-serif;letter-spacing:0.1px">-Jeff</span></div></div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><br style="font-family:Roboto,Arial,sans-serif;letter-spacing:0.1px"><span style="font-family:Roboto,Arial,sans-serif;letter-spacing:0.1px">Jeffrey E. Semprebon</span><br style="font-family:Roboto,Arial,sans-serif;letter-spacing:0.1px"><font face="Roboto, Arial, sans-serif"><span style="letter-spacing:0.1px">Registered Patent Agent (mechanical) looking for remote work</span></font></div><div><a href="mailto:jesemprebon@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">jesemprebon@gmail.com</a><br style="font-family:Roboto,Arial,sans-serif;letter-spacing:0.1px"><span style="font-family:Roboto,Arial,sans-serif;letter-spacing:0.1px">72 Myrtle Street</span><br style="font-family:Roboto,Arial,sans-serif;letter-spacing:0.1px"><span style="font-family:Roboto,Arial,sans-serif;letter-spacing:0.1px">Claremont, New Hampshire 03743</span><br></div></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 7:40\u202fAM David Boundy via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Let me stress that. As far as I know, there are no countervailing benefits to be had or risks avoided by naming the agent/attorney as inventor. It's 100% downside. Don't do it.</div><div><br></div><div>Another experience, I was not directly involved in the case, but I was in-house counsel at eSpeed during appeal phase. <a href="https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=11175138575348740529" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=11175138575348740529</a> (then look at the D Delaware cases). The problem was that the lawyers (Fish & Neave) mixed up who was wearing which hat, between inventors, company management, and the lawyers. That metastasized into a comprehensive subject matter waiver. And because of that, a tiny little document was produced, and that turned into inequitable conduct, and losing the case. eSpeed had had a monopoly in its market. And then it didn't.<br></div><div><br></div><div>It's REALLY important to understand role pigeonholes or information compartmentalization, and keep everybody in their pigeonholes.<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 6:22\u202fAM David Boundy <<a href="mailto:PatentProcedure@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">PatentProcedure@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>I disagree with Judith and Carl. It's a MISTAKE, a potentially-catastrophic mistake with no upside, for any lawyer to name him/herself as an inventor, in-house or outside. You're almost guaranteeing a hole in the privilege, and potentially a subject matter waiver. Back in my litigator days, one of my little specialties was depositions of attorneys. If you have a witness that's a fact witness or some issues, and the attorney for others, oh man what a tasty target rich environment. DON'T DO IT.</div><div><br></div><div>You'll find my name on some of my early patents, but not after I sat as guest of honor or a couple depositions by Cravath, Kirkland & Ellis, and similar firms, and realized how many of my defense counsel's objections would not be possible if I had been a named inventor.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I disagree with David Hricik. His paper <a href="https://digitalcommons.law.mercer.edu/jour_mlr/vol55/iss2/4/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://digitalcommons.law.mercer.edu/jour_mlr/vol55/iss2/4/</a> proceeds from these two sentences:</div><div><br></div><div style="margin-left:40px">On the one occasion the Federal Circuit did address this issue, ... the court stated that as a matter of law, practitioners can never be inventors. <br></div><div style="margin-left:40px">The Federal Circuit was wrong.</div><div><br></div><div>That's not the way it works. When a panel majority of people with black robes, presidential appointments, and Senate Confirmations say that it is fine -- no error, no statutory violation, just fine -- to not name lawyer as inventor, well, that's the law.</div><div><br></div><div>This is not a close call. Just don't.<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 9, 2024 at 11:19\u202fPM Judith S via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>I agree that as outside counsel you should never name yourself as an inventor for a patent you wrote.</div><div><br></div><div>But I've had more than one in-house counsel who contributed to the invention when we were discussing it in committee. I think that's not a big issue, if in-house counsel becomes an inventor.</div><div><br></div><div>Judith<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 9, 2024 at 12:40\u202fPM Suzannah K. Sundby via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I\u2019d also question whether the patent attorney is truly a \u201cjoint\u201d inventor, i.e., worked in \u2018collaboration\u2019, etc.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Imho, patent attorneys should never
<i>write themselves in</i> as an inventor.<span> </span>
After all, it is our job to write what the inventors envision is their invention, not what we think the inventors want to invent.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">If a patent attorney has a question as to whether a particular embodiment/application/combination is contemplated by the inventors and should therefore be included
as a claim, the patent attorney should ask as the inventors a <i>leading</i> question, e.g., Do you envision that this could be \u2026 ?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Sometimes they say something that\u2019s a great idea or yes, that\u2019s how it could be implemented\u2026<span>
</span>I then correct them and say it is what I understood from their own disclosure and/or I didn\u2019t know whether it would work or not which is why I asked, etc.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ssundby/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><span style="color:black;text-decoration:none">Suzannah
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Patentpractice
<<a href="mailto:patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>David Boundy via Patentpractice<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 9, 2024 1:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> For patent practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> David Boundy <<a href="mailto:PatentProcedure@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">PatentProcedure@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Patentpractice] Patent lawyer as inventor on client's application?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">My view is that you should not name yourself inventor without a Really Good Reason. Here are the reasons that you should not name yourself as inventor:</span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
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<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">\u25cf If you are merely the attorney, not the inventor, you are unlikely to be called for deposition\u2014attorneys generally don\u2019t get deposed unless there\u2019s some smell of inequitable conduct in the air
first.<a name="m_3880315798196061680_m_8179995266254743648_m_-4972033052347162407_m_-8700340141342876121_m_-6441156188502376828__ftnref1" rel="noreferrer"></a><a href="#m_3880315798196061680_m_8179995266254743648_m_-4972033052347162407_m_-8700340141342876121_m_-6441156188502376828__ftn1" rel="noreferrer"><span><span><sup>[1]</sup></span></span><span></span></a><span> However, if you are
a named inventor, you <i>will</i> be deposed. And once you\u2019re in the hot seat in your role as inventor, the scope of questions that you can be asked has little bound, including \u201cfishing expedition\u201d questions for inequitable conduct that couldn\u2019t be asked
if you weren\u2019t already there.<a name="m_3880315798196061680_m_8179995266254743648_m_-4972033052347162407_m_-8700340141342876121_m_-6441156188502376828__ftnref2" rel="noreferrer"></a></span><a href="#m_3880315798196061680_m_8179995266254743648_m_-4972033052347162407_m_-8700340141342876121_m_-6441156188502376828__ftn2" rel="noreferrer"><span><span><span><sup>[2]</sup></span></span></span><span><span></span></span></a></span><span></span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:0.5in">
<span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">\u25cf When a statement of fact made solely as
<i>attorney argument</i> is erroneous without intent, it\u2019s not inequitable conduct.<a name="m_3880315798196061680_m_8179995266254743648_m_-4972033052347162407_m_-8700340141342876121_m_-6441156188502376828__ftnref3" rel="noreferrer"></a></span></span><a href="#m_3880315798196061680_m_8179995266254743648_m_-4972033052347162407_m_-8700340141342876121_m_-6441156188502376828__ftn3" rel="noreferrer"><span><span><span><sup><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">[3]</span></sup></span></span></span><span><span></span></span></a><span></span><span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">
However, if you are the inventor, the same argument could be an <i>inventor\u2019s statement</i>, and that statement might be evaluated for inequitable conduct on a far different standard.</span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:0.5in">
<span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">\u25cf As a person that is likely to become a witness, you are disqualified from representing the client in any litigation. The disqualification may extend to your
firm.</span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">While the Federal Circuit has not explicitly blessed the practice, it has at least told district courts not to invalidate such patents under
old § 102(f) (\u201cA person shall be entitled to a patent unless \u2026 he did not himself invent the subject matter sought to be patented.\u201d), nor to correct inventorship under § 256:</span></span><a href="#m_3880315798196061680_m_8179995266254743648_m_-4972033052347162407_m_-8700340141342876121_m_-6441156188502376828__ftn1" rel="noreferrer"><span><span><sup><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">[4]</span></sup></span></span><span></span></a><span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0.5in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:0.5in">
<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">\u2026 An attorney\u2019s professional responsibility is to assist his or her client in defining her invention to obtain, if possible, a valid patent with maximum coverage. An attorney performing
that role should not be a competitor of the client, asserting his inventorship as a result of representing his client. Thus, to assert that proper performance of the attorney\u2019s role is a ground for invalidating the patent constitutes a failure to understand
the proper role of the patent attorney.</span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<a name="m_3880315798196061680_m_8179995266254743648_m_-4972033052347162407_m_-8700340141342876121_m_-6441156188502376828__ftn1" rel="noreferrer"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span><sup>[1]</sup></span> <i>Ring Plus Inc v Cingular Wireless Corp.</i>, 614 F.3d 1354, ___, 6 USPQ2d 1022, ___ (Fed. Cir. 2010) (material misstatement in Background was material to inequitable conduct, but did not establish
intent to deceive); Taltech Ltd v Esquel Ents Ltd., 604 F3d 1324, ___, 95 USPQ2d 1257, ___ (Fed. Cir. 2010) (inequitable conduct & atty fees in undisclosed prior art, atty misstatement; intent inferred from circumstance & lack evidence of good faith).<u></u><u></u></span></a></p>
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<span><sup>[2]</sup></span> Exergen Corp v Wal-Mart Stores Inc., 575 F3d 1312, ___, 91 USPQ2d 1656, ___ (Fed. Cir. 2009) (FRCP 9(b) pleading of inequitable conduct reqs specific who, what, when, where and how, including facts
implying intent).<u></u><u></u></span></span></p>
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<span><a name="m_3880315798196061680_m_8179995266254743648_m_-4972033052347162407_m_-8700340141342876121_m_-6441156188502376828__ftn3" rel="noreferrer"></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span><sup>[3]</sup></span> <i>Intirtool Ltd v Texar Corp.</i>, 369 F3d 1289, ___, 70 USPQ2d 1780, ___ (Fed. Cir. 2004) (inequitable conduct of faulty prosecution arguments);
<i>Norian Corp v Stryker Corp.</i>, 363 F3d 1321, 70 USPQ2d 1508 (Fed. Cir. 2004) (inequitable conduct of faulty prosecution arguments);
<i>CFMT Inc v Yieldup Int\u2019l Corp.</i>, 349 F3d 1333, ___, 68 USPQ2d 1940, ___ (Fed. Cir. 2003) (inequitable conduct of faulty prosecution arguments);
<i>Transonic Systems Inc v Non-Invasive Medical Technologies Corp.</i>, 75 Fed.Appx. 765 (Fed. Cir. 2003) (unpublished) (inequitable conduct of faulty prosecution arguments);
<i>Gambro Lundia AB v Baxter Healthcare Corp</i>, 110 F3d 1573, ___, 42 USPQ2d 1378, ___ (Fed. Cir. 1997).<u></u><u></u></span></span></p>
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<sup>[4]</sup></span> <i>Solomon v. Kimberly-Clark Corp.</i>, 216 F.3d 1372, 1382, 55 USPQ2d 1279, 1285 (Fed. Cir. 2000).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Dec 9, 2024 at 1:40<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">\u202f</span>PM Carl Oppedahl via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p>I have had this happen half a dozen times over the years. I send the standard email "here are the claims, please look at them and tell me if we have named all of the inventors" and next thing you know, I am told I am a co-inventor.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>When this happens, I simply sign a declaration and asssignment, record the assignment, and give it no further thought.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Yes I suppose one could concoct situations where (for example) a malfeasant patent attorney could intentionally slip a "not" into the assignment, or could intentionally do something or another during prosecution that would somehow favor the attorney. To
the extent that one decides that such risks would need to be somehow addressed, yes one cannot imagine any approach other than transferring everything about the case (including the assignment task) to separate counsel.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>One imagines the client would get stuck paying lots of money to new counsel for them to spend the time needed gain familiarity with the file.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>I guess I have sort of assumed that if I can be trusted not to screw over the client in the handling of the file in general (before I was identified as a co-inventor), I ought to be able to be trusted not to screw over the client in the remaining tasks.
But you raise valid questions that I have never thought about.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 12/9/2024 1:03 PM, Patent Lawyer via Patentpractice wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">What issues / concerns are there with a patent attorney being named an inventor on their client's patent application?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Assume that the attorney will assign all rights in the invention to the client/applicant, should the attorney advise them to have someone else handle the assignment?
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Are there privilege issues? (In a communication with the client, who are you? Attorney or co-inventor?)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Does the patent attorney have to advise the PTO? Is there a conflict of any sort?<u></u><u></u></p>
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