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<p>While we are on this topic. It was just a few weeks ago that
many members of this listserv piled on top of each other, urging
to anyone who would listen that if you had to make a mistake with
your inventor list, it absolutely was better to commit the sin of
misjoinder than nonjoinder. That if you are going to make a
mistake with your inventor list, there are a seemingly infinite
number of risks and downsides and traps for the unwary if your
mistake were to be in the direction of failing to include some
otherwise possibly deserving name on your inventor list. That a
mistake the other way (perhaps including some name on the inventor
list that might arguably not belong there) was by far the less
risky, had virtually no downsides, and did not give rise to traps
for the unwary.</p>
<p>And yet now (I have not been keeping close score on this) it
seems that many of the same members of this listserv are urging
that no matter how deserving the attorney might be to get included
on the inventor list, the correct next step is nonjoinder.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/10/2024 8:38 AM, Jeffrey
Semprebon via Patentpractice wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAO06Bye8eWe9YTkjcwxutsLmRMpmUbJ0-x-CcPtY1v4H0oU5dA@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Where I've had this issue arise has been where,
while drafting the application, I've seen either a way to work
around the narrower claims based on the inventor's disclosed
embodiments or a way to accomplish the same functional
limitation with a simpler structure than used by the inventors
(or both). <br>
<br>
Suppose that the client likes whatever
modification/alternative well enough to put it into a
dependent claim, and then during examination it turns out that
such limitation is needed to distinguish over prior art
found by the examiner. In that case, does failing to name the
practitioner as inventor invite any risk if the named
inventors will have to truthfully state during depositions
that the practitioner was the one who thought of that
limitation?
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span>-Jeff</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
<span>Jeffrey E. Semprebon</span><br>
<span>Registered Patent Agent (mechanical) looking for
remote work</span></div>
<div><a href="mailto:jesemprebon@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jesemprebon@gmail.com</a><br>
<span>72 Myrtle Street</span><br>
<span>Claremont, New Hampshire 03743</span><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at
7:40\u202fAM David Boundy via Patentpractice <<a
href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Let me stress that. As far as I know, there are no
countervailing benefits to be had or risks avoided by
naming the agent/attorney as inventor. It's 100%
downside. Don't do it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Another experience, I was not directly involved in the
case, but I was in-house counsel at eSpeed during appeal
phase. <a
href="https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=11175138575348740529"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=11175138575348740529</a>
(then look at the D Delaware cases). The problem was that
the lawyers (Fish & Neave) mixed up who was wearing
which hat, between inventors, company management, and the
lawyers. That metastasized into a comprehensive subject
matter waiver. And because of that, a tiny little
document was produced, and that turned into inequitable
conduct, and losing the case. eSpeed had had a monopoly
in its market. And then it didn't.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It's REALLY important to understand role pigeonholes or
information compartmentalization, and keep everybody in
their pigeonholes.<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at
6:22\u202fAM David Boundy <<a
href="mailto:PatentProcedure@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">PatentProcedure@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I disagree with Judith and Carl. It's a MISTAKE, a
potentially-catastrophic mistake with no upside, for
any lawyer to name him/herself as an inventor,
in-house or outside. You're almost guaranteeing a
hole in the privilege, and potentially a subject
matter waiver. Back in my litigator days, one of my
little specialties was depositions of attorneys. If
you have a witness that's a fact witness or some
issues, and the attorney for others, oh man what a
tasty target rich environment. DON'T DO IT.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You'll find my name on some of my early patents,
but not after I sat as guest of honor or a couple
depositions by Cravath, Kirkland & Ellis, and
similar firms, and realized how many of my defense
counsel's objections would not be possible if I had
been a named inventor.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I disagree with David Hricik. His paper <a
href="https://digitalcommons.law.mercer.edu/jour_mlr/vol55/iss2/4/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://digitalcommons.law.mercer.edu/jour_mlr/vol55/iss2/4/</a>
proceeds from these two sentences:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On the one occasion the Federal Circuit did address
this issue, ... the court stated that as a matter of
law, practitioners can never be
inventors. <br>
</div>
<div>The Federal Circuit was wrong.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That's not the way it works. When a panel majority
of people with black robes, presidential appointments,
and Senate Confirmations say that it is fine -- no
error, no statutory violation, just fine -- to not
name lawyer as inventor, well, that's the law.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is not a close call. Just don't.<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 9, 2024 at
11:19\u202fPM Judith S via Patentpractice <<a
href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I agree that as outside counsel you should
never name yourself as an inventor for a patent
you wrote.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But I've had more than one in-house counsel who
contributed to the invention when we were
discussing it in committee. I think that's not a
big issue, if in-house counsel becomes an
inventor.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Judith<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 9,
2024 at 12:40\u202fPM Suzannah K. Sundby via
Patentpractice <<a
href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>I\u2019d also question
whether the patent attorney is truly a
\u201cjoint\u201d inventor, i.e., worked in
\u2018collaboration\u2019, etc.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Imho, patent
attorneys should never
<i>write themselves in</i> as an
inventor.<span> </span>
After all, it is our job to write what
the inventors envision is their
invention, not what we think the
inventors want to invent.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>If a patent
attorney has a question as to whether a
particular
embodiment/application/combination is
contemplated by the inventors and should
therefore be included as a claim, the
patent attorney should ask as the
inventors a <i>leading</i> question,
e.g., Do you envision that this could be
\u2026 ?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Sometimes they
say something that\u2019s a great idea or
yes, that\u2019s how it could be implemented\u2026<span>
</span>I then correct them and say it is
what I understood from their own
disclosure and/or I didn\u2019t know whether
it would work or not which is why I
asked, etc.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><a
href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ssundby/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span>Suzannah
K. Sundby</span></a></span><span>
<b><span>|</span></b> Partner</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><a
href="http://www.canadylortz.com/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><u><span>canady
+ lortz</span></u><u><span>
<span>LLP</span></span></u></a></span><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>1050 30th Street,
NW</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Washington, DC
20007</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>T: 202.486.8020</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>F: 202.540.8020</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><a
href="mailto:suzannah@canadylortz.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span>suzannah@canadylortz.com</span></a></span><span></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">
<span><a
href="http://www.canadylortz.com/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span>www.canadylortz.com</span></a></span><span></span></p>
</div>
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Notice:
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>From:</span></b><span>
Patentpractice <<a
href="mailto:patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>David Boundy via
Patentpractice<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 9, 2024
1:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> For patent practitioners.
This is not for laypersons to seek
legal advice. <<a
href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> David Boundy <<a
href="mailto:PatentProcedure@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">PatentProcedure@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Patentpractice]
Patent lawyer as inventor on client's
application?</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>My view is
that you should not name yourself
inventor without a Really Good
Reason. Here are the reasons that
you should not name yourself as
inventor:</span>
</p>
<p>
<span>\u25cf If you are merely the
attorney, not the inventor, you
are unlikely to be called for
deposition\u2014attorneys generally
don\u2019t get deposed unless there\u2019s
some smell of inequitable conduct
in the air first.<a
name="m_8179995266254743648_m_-4972033052347162407_m_-8700340141342876121_m_-6441156188502376828__ftnref1"
moz-do-not-send="true"></a><a
href="#m_8179995266254743648_m_-4972033052347162407_m_-8700340141342876121_m_-6441156188502376828__ftn1"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span><span><sup>[1]</sup></span></span><span></span></a><span>
However, if you are a named
inventor, you <i>will</i> be
deposed. And once you\u2019re in the
hot seat in your role as
inventor, the scope of questions
that you can be asked has little
bound, including \u201cfishing
expedition\u201d questions for
inequitable conduct that
couldn\u2019t be asked if you weren\u2019t
already there.<a
name="m_8179995266254743648_m_-4972033052347162407_m_-8700340141342876121_m_-6441156188502376828__ftnref2"
moz-do-not-send="true"></a></span><a
href="#m_8179995266254743648_m_-4972033052347162407_m_-8700340141342876121_m_-6441156188502376828__ftn2"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span><span><span><sup>[2]</sup></span></span></span><span><span></span></span></a></span><span></span><span></span></p>
<p>
<span><span>\u25cf When a statement of
fact made solely as
<i>attorney argument</i> is
erroneous without intent, it\u2019s
not inequitable conduct.<a
name="m_8179995266254743648_m_-4972033052347162407_m_-8700340141342876121_m_-6441156188502376828__ftnref3"
moz-do-not-send="true"></a></span></span><a
href="#m_8179995266254743648_m_-4972033052347162407_m_-8700340141342876121_m_-6441156188502376828__ftn3"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span><span><span><sup><span>[3]</span></sup></span></span></span><span><span></span></span></a><span></span><span><span>
However, if you are the
inventor, the same argument
could be an <i>inventor\u2019s
statement</i>, and that
statement might be evaluated for
inequitable conduct on a far
different standard.</span></span></p>
<p>
<span><span>\u25cf As a person that is
likely to become a witness, you
are disqualified from
representing the client in any
litigation. The
disqualification may extend to
your firm.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span>While
the Federal Circuit has not
explicitly blessed the practice,
it has at least told district
courts not to invalidate such
patents under old § 102(f) (\u201cA
person shall be entitled to a
patent unless \u2026 he did not
himself invent the subject
matter sought to be patented.\u201d),
nor to correct inventorship
under § 256:</span></span><a
href="#m_8179995266254743648_m_-4972033052347162407_m_-8700340141342876121_m_-6441156188502376828__ftn1"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span><span><sup><span>[4]</span></sup></span></span><span></span></a><span></span></p>
<p>
<span>\u2026 An attorney\u2019s professional
responsibility is to assist his or
her client in defining her
invention to obtain, if possible,
a valid patent with maximum
coverage. An attorney performing
that role should not be a
competitor of the client,
asserting his inventorship as a
result of representing his
client. Thus, to assert that
proper performance of the
attorney\u2019s role is a ground for
invalidating the patent
constitutes a failure to
understand the proper role of the
patent attorney.</span><span></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<hr width="33%">
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<hr width="33%">
</div>
<div
id="m_8179995266254743648m_-4972033052347162407m_-8700340141342876121m_-6441156188502376828gmail-ftn1">
<p>
<a
name="m_8179995266254743648_m_-4972033052347162407_m_-8700340141342876121_m_-6441156188502376828__ftn1"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span>
<span><sup>[1]</sup></span>
<i>Ring Plus Inc v Cingular
Wireless Corp.</i>, 614
F.3d 1354, ___, 6 USPQ2d
1022, ___ (Fed. Cir. 2010)
(material misstatement in
Background was material to
inequitable conduct, but did
not establish intent to
deceive); Taltech Ltd v
Esquel Ents Ltd., 604 F3d
1324, ___, 95 USPQ2d 1257,
___ (Fed. Cir. 2010)
(inequitable conduct &
atty fees in undisclosed
prior art, atty
misstatement; intent
inferred from circumstance
& lack evidence of good
faith).</span></a></p>
</div>
<div
id="m_8179995266254743648m_-4972033052347162407m_-8700340141342876121m_-6441156188502376828gmail-ftn2">
<p>
<span><a
name="m_8179995266254743648_m_-4972033052347162407_m_-8700340141342876121_m_-6441156188502376828__ftn2"
moz-do-not-send="true"></a><span>
<span><sup>[2]</sup></span>
Exergen Corp v Wal-Mart
Stores Inc., 575 F3d 1312,
___, 91 USPQ2d 1656, ___
(Fed. Cir. 2009) (FRCP 9(b)
pleading of inequitable
conduct reqs specific who,
what, when, where and how,
including facts implying
intent).</span></span></p>
</div>
<div
id="m_8179995266254743648m_-4972033052347162407m_-8700340141342876121m_-6441156188502376828gmail-ftn3">
<p>
<span><a
name="m_8179995266254743648_m_-4972033052347162407_m_-8700340141342876121_m_-6441156188502376828__ftn3"
moz-do-not-send="true"></a><span>
<span><sup>[3]</sup></span>
<i>Intirtool Ltd v Texar
Corp.</i>, 369 F3d 1289,
___, 70 USPQ2d 1780, ___
(Fed. Cir. 2004)
(inequitable conduct of
faulty prosecution
arguments);
<i>Norian Corp v Stryker
Corp.</i>, 363 F3d 1321,
70 USPQ2d 1508 (Fed. Cir.
2004) (inequitable conduct
of faulty prosecution
arguments);
<i>CFMT Inc v Yieldup Int\u2019l
Corp.</i>, 349 F3d 1333,
___, 68 USPQ2d 1940, ___
(Fed. Cir. 2003)
(inequitable conduct of
faulty prosecution
arguments);
<i>Transonic Systems Inc v
Non-Invasive Medical
Technologies Corp.</i>, 75
Fed.Appx. 765 (Fed. Cir.
2003) (unpublished)
(inequitable conduct of
faulty prosecution
arguments);
<i>Gambro Lundia AB v Baxter
Healthcare Corp</i>, 110
F3d 1573, ___, 42 USPQ2d
1378, ___ (Fed. Cir. 1997).</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span>
<hr width="33%">
</span></div>
<span></span>
<div
id="m_8179995266254743648m_-4972033052347162407m_-8700340141342876121m_-6441156188502376828gmail-ftn1">
<p>
<span> <span>
<sup>[4]</sup></span> <i>Solomon
v. Kimberly-Clark Corp.</i>,
216 F.3d 1372, 1382, 55 USPQ2d
1279, 1285 (Fed. Cir. 2000).</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Dec 9, 2024
at 1:40<span>\u202f</span>PM Carl Oppedahl
via Patentpractice <<a
href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<p>I have had this happen half a dozen
times over the years. I send the
standard email "here are the claims,
please look at them and tell me if
we have named all of the inventors"
and next thing you know, I am told I
am a co-inventor.</p>
<p>When this happens, I simply sign a
declaration and asssignment, record
the assignment, and give it no
further thought.</p>
<p>Yes I suppose one could concoct
situations where (for example) a
malfeasant patent attorney could
intentionally slip a "not" into the
assignment, or could intentionally
do something or another during
prosecution that would somehow favor
the attorney. To the extent that
one decides that such risks would
need to be somehow addressed, yes
one cannot imagine any approach
other than transferring everything
about the case (including the
assignment task) to separate
counsel.</p>
<p>One imagines the client would get
stuck paying lots of money to new
counsel for them to spend the time
needed gain familiarity with the
file.</p>
<p>I guess I have sort of assumed that
if I can be trusted not to screw
over the client in the handling of
the file in general (before I was
identified as a co-inventor), I
ought to be able to be trusted not
to screw over the client in the
remaining tasks. But you raise
valid questions that I have never
thought about.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 12/9/2024
1:03 PM, Patent Lawyer via
Patentpractice wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">What issues /
concerns are there with a patent
attorney being named an inventor
on their client's patent
application?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Assume that
the attorney will assign all
rights in the invention to the
client/applicant, should the
attorney advise them to have
someone else handle the
assignment?
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Are there
privilege issues? (In a
communication with the client,
who are you? Attorney or
co-inventor?)</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Does the
patent attorney have to advise
the PTO? Is there a conflict of
any sort?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <br>
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target="_blank"
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class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://oppedahl-lists.com/mailman/listinfo/patentpractice_oppedahl-lists.com</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<span>-- </span></p>
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<p>
<b><span><a
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span><img width="73" height="92"
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<b><span>Cambridge
Technology Law
LLC</span></b><span><br>
686
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02139<br>
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href="https://www.iam-media.com/strategy300/individuals/david-boundy"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span>Listed as one of the
world's 300
leading
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property
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<p><span>
</span><a
href="http://ssrn.com/author=2936470" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">Articles at http://ssrn.com/author=2936470</a><a
href="https://www.keynect.us/requestCardAccess/USA500DBOUN?"
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span>Click here to add me to
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span>David Boundy</span></a></span></p>
<p><span></span></p>
<p><span><span></span></span></p>
</b>
<p><span><span><a
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moz-do-not-send="true">DBoundy@cambridgetechlaw.com</a> / <a
href="tel:%2B1%206464729737" value="+16464729737" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">+1 646.472.9737</a></span></span></p>
<p><span><span><span>Cambridge
Technology Law
LLC</span></span><br>
686
Massachusetts
Avenue #201,
Cambridge MA
02139<br>
<a
href="http://www.CambridgeTechLaw.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.CambridgeTechLaw.com</a><br>
<a
href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/DavidBoundy" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://www.linkedin.com/in/DavidBoundy</a><br>
</span></p>
mailing
address
<div>PO Box
590638<br>
</div>
<div>Newton
MA 02459<br>
</div>
</div>
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<span><br>
This
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Unless you are
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</b>
<p><a
href="https://www.iam-media.com/strategy300/individuals/david-boundy"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span>Listed as one of the
world's 300
leading
intellectual
property
strategists</span></a></p>
<p><span>
</span><a
href="http://ssrn.com/author=2936470" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">Articles at http://ssrn.com/author=2936470</a><a
href="https://www.keynect.us/requestCardAccess/USA500DBOUN?"
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span>Click here to add me to
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span>David Boundy</span></a></span></p>
<p><span></span></p>
<p><span><span></span></span></p>
</b>
<p><span><span><a
href="mailto:dboundy@cambridgetechlaw.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">DBoundy@cambridgetechlaw.com</a> / <a
href="tel:%2B1%206464729737" value="+16464729737" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">+1 646.472.9737</a></span></span></p>
<p><span><span><span>Cambridge
Technology Law
LLC</span></span><br>
686
Massachusetts
Avenue #201,
Cambridge MA
02139<br>
<a
href="http://www.CambridgeTechLaw.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.CambridgeTechLaw.com</a><br>
<a
href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/DavidBoundy" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://www.linkedin.com/in/DavidBoundy</a><br>
</span></p>
mailing
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<div>PO Box
590638<br>
</div>
<div>Newton
MA 02459<br>
</div>
</div>
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<span><br>
This
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not
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substitute
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is it
sufficient to
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other adverse
consequences
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Unless you are
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