<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12px;" class=""><i class="">I want to keep this message in the "IDS" chain, though it does not address the last comments:</i></span><div class=""><font face="Calibri" class=""><br class=""></font></div><div class="">
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<!--StartFragment--><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font face="Calibri" class="">This comment is about </font><u style="font-family: Calibri;" class="">satisfying the duty of disclosure in continuations.</u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font face="Calibri" class="">I know why we file IDSs and cite
references, etc. But often, I get an examiner
commenting that they did not consider the references because there were too
many or some other crap. And then there is this lined-through
crap. </font><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font face="Calibri" class="">Even if the cited references are listed
on the front pages of the patent, there can be no presumption that any
particular listed document was actually reviewed by the examiner (whether there
be 10 or 1000 cited documents).</font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font face="Calibri" class="">In any litigation, the defendant will
look at the file history and see the examiner\u2019s comments. Even if I rebut those comments, it changes nothing.</font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font face="Calibri" class="">With this in mind, here is my proposed
approach to <u class="">satisfying the duty of disclosure in continuations:</u> (I have quoted part of MPEP 609.02 below):</font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font face="Calibri" class="">In a continuation application, write a letter to the PTO titled \u201c<b class=""><u class="">Information
Disclosure Per MPEP 609.02\u201d</u></b> and remind the examiner of their obligation to consider information that the
Office had considered in the parent. Provide
no listing of references, just a list of the parent application(s). Maybe provide a checkbox next to the parent application
number.</font><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font face="Calibri" class="">What do we lose? We don\u2019t
get a list of prior art on the front page. So what? We have satisfied the duty of disclosure. We have followed the rules. And that is in the record.<o:p class=""></o:p></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class="">We treat the cited art listing on the front page as some kind of valuable proof
of something.</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""> </span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class="">But it isn\u2019t.</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""> </span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class="">So why go through all the crap and pay the
extra fees.</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""> </span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class="">Just get it all right in the
parent(s) and go from there. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class="">Oh, and wouldn't it be nice if the examiner's obligations also applied to national phase applications?! But noooo.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class="">Thoughts?</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p class=""><font face="Calibri" class=""> </font></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font face="Times New Roman" class=""> MPEP § 609.02<o:p class=""></o:p></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font face="Times New Roman" class=""><b class="">II. IDS IN CONTINUED EXAMINATIONS OR CONTINUING APPLICATIONS</b><o:p class=""></o:p></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font face="Times New Roman" class=""><b class="">2. Continuation Applications, Divisional Applications, or
Continuation-in-Part Applications Filed Under 37 CFR 1.53(b)</b><o:p class=""></o:p></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;line-height:16.8pt;vertical-align:
baseline"><font face="Times New Roman" class="">The examiner will consider
information which has been considered by the Office in a parent application
(other than an international application; see subsection I., above) when
examining: (A) a continuation application filed under <b class=""><a href="https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/mpep-9020-appx-r.html#d0e318681" class=""><span style="color:#031D4E;border:none windowtext 1.0pt;mso-border-alt:none windowtext 0in;
padding:0in" class="">37 CFR 1.53(b)</span></a></b>, (B) a divisional application filed
under <b class=""><a href="https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/mpep-9020-appx-r.html#d0e318681" class=""><span style="color:#031D4E;border:none windowtext 1.0pt;mso-border-alt:none windowtext 0in;
padding:0in" class="">37 CFR 1.53(b)</span></a></b>, or (C) a continuation-in-part
application filed under <b class=""><a href="https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/mpep-9020-appx-r.html#d0e318681" class=""><span style="color:#031D4E;border:none windowtext 1.0pt;mso-border-alt:none windowtext 0in;
padding:0in" class="">37 CFR 1.53(b)</span></a></b>. A listing of the information need
not be resubmitted in the continuing application unless the applicant desires
the information to be printed on the patent.<o:p class=""></o:p></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p class=""> </o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></p>
<!--EndFragment--><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 16, 2025, at 12:11 PM, Masson, Roger M. via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" class="">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">It used to be that the CFR was updated once a year on a rolling basis back when it was on paper only. I think this is still true for the pdf version. I don\u2019t know about html versions.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="602" style="width: 451.5pt; border-collapse: collapse;"><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td style="padding: 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class="">Roger</span></b><b class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><b class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class="">M.</span></b><b class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><b class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class="">Masson</span></b><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class="">Senior Counsel</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""></span><b class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class="">Hinshaw</span></b><b class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><b class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class="">&</span></b><b class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><b class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class="">Culbertson LLP</span></b><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class="">151 North Franklin Street, Suite 2500,</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class="">Chicago,</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class="">IL</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class="">60606</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td></tr><tr class=""><td width="600" style="width: 6.25in; padding: 7.5pt 0in 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(39, 170, 225);" class="">O:</span></b><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(39, 170, 225);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class="">312-704-3516</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(39, 170, 225);" class=""> </span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class="">|</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(39, 170, 225);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(39, 170, 225);" class="">F:</span></b><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(39, 170, 225);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class="">312-704-3001</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(39, 170, 225);" class=""><br class=""></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class=""><a href="mailto:RMasson@hinshawlaw.com" title="Click to send email to Masson, Roger M." style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(0, 40, 86); text-decoration: none;" class="">RMasson@hinshawlaw.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(39, 170, 225);" class=""> </span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(39, 170, 225);" class=""><br class=""></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class=""><a href="https://www.hinshawlaw.com/professionals-Roger-Masson.html" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(0, 40, 86); text-decoration: none;" class="">My Bio</span></a></span><b class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><b class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class="">|</span></b><b class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 40, 86);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; 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font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""></span><a href="https://www.hinshawlaw.com/newsroom-news-hinshaw-mansfield-rule-five-certified.html" target="''" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span id="cid:image005.jpg@01DB6807.535FAB00"><image005.jpg></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td></tr></tbody></table></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Pamela Brisky (Fujitsu) <<a href="mailto:pbrisky@fujitsu.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">pbrisky@fujitsu.com</a>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, January 16, 2025 9:29 AM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>For patent practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Patentpractice] Amendment to 37 CFR 1.98(a) - IDS reference count "fee" rule impementation<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Hi \u2013<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Is that adequate though? The amendment is not appearing anywhere else. <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">When should the final version of 1.98(a) appear on official sites?<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Pam<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Scott Nielson via Patentpractice<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, January 15, 2025 9:01 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a><br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Scott Nielson <<a href="mailto:scnielson@outlook.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">scnielson@outlook.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Patentpractice] Amendment to 37 CFR 1.98(a) - IDS reference count "fee" rule impementation<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class="">The amendment to 1.98 is located at the end of the FR final rule notice. This is what it says:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 2.25pt; border-left-color: rgb(200, 200, 200); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div style="margin-top: 12pt; margin-bottom: 12pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class="">10. Section 1.98 is amended by revising paragraph (a) introductory text and adding paragraph (a)(4) to read as follows:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class="">§</span><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">\u2009</span><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class="">1.98<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class="">Content of information disclosure statement.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin-top: 12pt; margin-bottom: 12pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class="">(a) Any information disclosure statement filed under §</span><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">\u2009</span><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class="">1.97 shall include the items listed in paragraphs (a)(1) through (4) of this section.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class="">* * * * *<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class="">(4) A clear written assertion that the information disclosure statement is accompanied by the applicable information disclosure statement size fee under §</span><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">\u2009</span><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class="">1.17(v) or a clear written assertion that no information disclosure statement size fee under §</span><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">\u2009</span><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class="">1.17(v) is required.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class="">Some of the comments in the final rule argued that the USPTO does not have authority to implement the rule (search the final rule for the section that starts with "Legal Considerations"). <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class="">One thing about the IDS fee is it is a "springing" fee in the sense that you are subject to the fee even if the next IDS you file in the application only lists a single reference. If you previously filed an IDS with 250 references, then filing a new IDS with one reference will require payment of the full fee. If you have any IDSs you need to file, then it's probably best to do it before the 19th.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class="">The PTO said it would provide an updated IDS form, but I haven't seen anything yet. In the absence of the updated form, I added the following section to my IDS form to keep track of the number of items that have been submitted (and to add a deposit account authorization that I believe complies with the USPTO's requirements). I'm open to suggestions about ways to improve it and/or to know what others are planning to do.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><p class="elementtoproof" style="margin: 0in 0in 6pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b class=""><u class=""><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class="">Size Fee</span></u></b><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="elementtoproof" style="margin: 0in 0in 6pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: 28.35pt;"><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class="">The cumulative number of items of information cited by the applicant in one or more information disclosure statements during the pendency of this application is<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class=""><u class="">[<span style="background-color: aqua; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">__</span>]</u></b>. This number includes the items cited above but does not include any items that were refused consideration.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p style="margin-bottom: 6pt; text-indent: 28.35pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class="">Applicant states that:</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p style="margin-bottom: 6pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Wingdings;" class="">¨</span><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>no size fee is required by 37 CFR 1.17(v); the cumulative number of items is 1\u201350; or</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p style="margin-bottom: 6pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Wingdings;" class="">¨</span><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>the information disclosure statement is accompanied by the following size fee as required by 37 CFR 1.17(v):</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 6pt; margin-left: 42.5pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Wingdings;" class="">¨</span><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>the size fee in 37 CFR 1.17(v)(1); the cumulative number of items is 51\u2013100;</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 6pt; margin-left: 42.5pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Wingdings;" class="">¨</span><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class=""> the size fee in 37 CFR 1.17(v)(2); the cumulative number of items is 101\u2013200;</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 6pt; margin-left: 63.8pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Wingdings;" class="">¨</span><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>the amount is reduced due to previous payment of the 37 CFR 1.17(v)(1) fee; or</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 6pt; margin-left: 42.5pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Wingdings;" class="">¨</span><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>the size fee in 37 CFR 1.17(v)(3); the cumulative number of items is more than 200;</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 6pt; margin-left: 63.8pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Wingdings;" class="">¨</span><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class=""> the amount is reduced due to previous payment of the 37 CFR 1.17(v)(1) fee; and/or</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 6pt; margin-left: 63.8pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Wingdings;" class="">¨</span><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>the amount is reduced due to previous payment of the 37 CFR 1.17(v)(2) fee.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="elementtoproof" style="margin: 0in 0in 6pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: 28.35pt;"><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class="">The required size fee should have been paid as part of filing the information disclosure statement. However, if the size fee was not paid or the incorrect amount was paid, then the Director is authorized to charge the size fee above or any payment deficiency for the size fee above to Deposit Account No.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="background-color: aqua; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">__</span>.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div id="Signature" class=""><p class=""><b class=""><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif; color: rgb(31, 56, 100);" class="">Scott Nielson</span></b><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class="">801-660-4400</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Aptos Serif", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-align: center;"><hr size="2" width="98%" align="center" class=""></div><div id="divRplyFwdMsg" class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="" class="">From:</span></b><span style="" class=""> Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> on behalf of Carl Oppedahl via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 15, 2025 6:02 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b> <a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b> Carl Oppedahl <<a href="mailto:carl@oppedahl.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">carl@oppedahl.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b> [Patentpractice] Amendment to 37 CFR 1.98(a) - IDS reference count "fee" rule impementation</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><p class="">Note: the original posting was too big for the listserv. The would-be attachment (the November 20, 2024 FR notice) can be obtained<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2024/11/20/2024-26821/setting-and-adjusting-patent-fees-during-fiscal-year-2025" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">here</a>.<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></p><p class="">So here is what our listmate wanted to post:<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="">As you are likely aware, effective January 19, 2025, the USPTO is requiring that each IDS contain a written assertion relating to the cumulative number of citations made by an applicant in a patent application. <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="">The count is based on the number of items listed on an IDS, not the number of references submitted. Each IDS filed from 1/19 on must contain this assertion and must state the specific fee that is being submitted, if any, corresponding to the cumulative reference count.<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="">In the attached FR notice, the USPTO stated<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class=""><i class=""><u class="">it was amending 37 CFR § 1.98(a)</u></i></b><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class=""><i class="">\u201cto include a new content requirement for an IDS that will facilitate implementation of the IDS size fee. Specifically, the USPTO is requiring that an IDS contain a clear written assertion by the applicant and patent owner that the IDS is accompanied by the appropriate IDS size fee or that no IDS size fee is required. This assertion is necessary because it ensures the record is clear as to which fee the applicant or patent owner believes may be due (or that no fee may be due) with the IDS so the examiner can promptly ascertain whether the IDS is compliant. There is no specific language required for the written assertion, but it should be readily identifiable on the IDS and clearly convey the applicable IDS size fee by specifying the particular paragraph in § 1.17(v) that applies (e.g., \u2018\u2018the fee due under 1.17(v)(2)\u2019\u2019), if any.\u201d</i><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="">I have not found any amendments to 37 CFR 1.98(a) outlining the content requirement. Additionally, despite their prior representation to me (also attached), no forms have been made available to us for use. <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="">Shouldn\u2019t this amendment to the CFR be made BEFORE the rule is effective?<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="">The FR notice also said that \u201can authorization to charge fees to a deposit account is not a compliant written assertion under the new § 1.98(a) requirement, unless the authorization clearly identifies the particular IDS size fee that should be charged for submission of a particular IDS.\u201d<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class=""><i class="">For example, language such as \u2018\u2018the Director is authorized to charge the § 1.17(v)(2)* fee for the IDS submitted on July 1, 2026 to deposit account XX\u2013XXXXX\u2019\u2019 would be a compliant written assertion because reference to paragraph (v)(2) particularly identifies the IDS size fee due, but language such as \u2018\u2018the Director is authorized to charge any applicable IDS size fee to deposit account XX\u2013XXXXX\u2019\u2019 would not be a compliant written assertion because it fails to establish which IDS size fee is due. General authorizations to charge fees to a deposit account are not compliant written assertions under the new § 1.98(a) requirement.</i><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="">What new requirement is there if the CFR has not been amended?<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="">IDS filings made after January 19 that do not include the written assertion or size fee will not be considered by the Examiner \u2013 only placed in the file. The applicant, upon learning of the non-consideration may file a new IDS with the requisite assertion and fee submission but the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class=""><u class="">date the new IDS is filed will be the date of the IDS</u></b> for the purpose of determining §1.97 compliance.<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="">So, here is my question \u2026 if they have not provided us with the amended CFR, and/or if they have not amended the CFR is this rule enforceable? <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="">I called OPLA today and left a message asking when we would see the amended CFR. I have not received a call back yet.<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="">I am but a lowly paralegal but this seems pretty derelict on the part of the USPTO. This \u201cfee rule\u201d seems way beyond the scope of simple fee setting and adds a significant burden on the applicant. The USPTO has stated that the purpose of this rule is deter what they call \u201cclearly irrelevant and, marginally relevant, or cumulative information.\u201d They further state that current IDS practice is \u201conerous for examiners and hinders the USPTO\u2019s statutory obligation to timely examine applications \u2026\u201d<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">That sounds more punitive than a fee rule made in good faith, especially when the USPTO goes on in the FR notice to say that they tried to address this in 2006 but the proposal was not adopted \u2013 \u201cinstead, to provide some relief for examiners burdened with large IDS submissions, the agency began providing examiners additional time to consider large IDS submissions in applications.\u201d <o:p class=""></o:p></div><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="">They then go on to claim the agency spends $10 million annually for examiners to consider IDS submissions. <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="">In defense of the new requirement, the USPTO states that less than 15% of all applicants will have to pay the size fee for the IDS filings. Okay, that may be true but 100% of all applicants have to adopt the written assertion requirement or face the consequence of having an IDS going unconsidered until it is too late to certify.<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="">What are your thoughts on this? <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p style="text-indent: 0.5in;" class="">Can this requirement be enforced without amendments to the CFR? <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p style="text-indent: 0.5in;" class="">Is this truly within the scope of their fee setting authority? <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="">The complete lack of transparency leading up to this rule change feels like bad faith to me. Is the PTO really getting this sloppy?<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="">Interested in your opinion(s).<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="">Thanks in advance,<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="">Pam<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""><sub class="">****</sub><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="">Pamela Cei Brisky<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="">Senior Patent Paralegal<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="">Fujitsu Intellectual Property Center<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="">Fujitsu North America, Inc.<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="">(571) 216-2112<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""><span style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class=""><a href="mailto:pbrisky@fujitsu.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class="">pbrisky@fujitsu.com</span></a></span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class=""><sub class=""> </sub><o:p class=""></o:p></p></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">Hinshaw & Culbertson LLP is an Illinois registered limited liability partnership that has elected to be governed by the Illinois Uniform Partnership Act (1997).<br class=""><br class="">The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are intended solely for the addressee(s) named in this message. 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