<div dir="ltr">I had this once about 20 years ago. I talked to (I think it was Magdalen Greenlief, then the editor of the MPEP.) She said "Yup, that's what it means." I asked about futility and the like. She said "No we want you to file the amendment." (No, we want your extension fees. Forward progress is not the PTO's business model. I didn't say that. That was back before I became totally cynical--but I guess it was a major factor in getting me to think that way.) But this section of the MPEP has been revised about 3-4-5 years ago -- it might be different now.<br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Mar 6, 2025 at 2:56\u202fPM Roger Browdy via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg-2414384440090557725">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">The RCE procedure (as explained in the MPEP) is strange as it provides that an examiner cannot make the next action final if an amendment after final was not entered by means
of an Advisory Action. See MPEP 706.07(b), 4<sup>th</sup> paragraph. However, if the RCE is filed on the same day as the amendment after final, for example, and an Advisory Action was never issued, the examiner can make the next action final, even though
the amendment clearly presented new issues so that it would never have been entered had an advisory action been issued. The literal language of the MPEP permits this (see MPEP 706.07(h)(VIII) and form paragraph 7.42.09). On the other hand, I know that many
examiners and supervisors interpret it differently and would never make the next action final if the amendment clearly raised new issues, even if no advisory action had been issued refusing entry and even though after-final practice would technically permit
it. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">I am filing a petition to withdraw finality in such a case, but I would like any input from anyone who may have filed such a petition in the past or otherwise has any insight
into the issue of whether the PTO policy is to make such after-RCE actions final or not. I have seen blogs where some have said that the action cannot be made final if the response raises new arguments on patentability. But this is not what MPEP 706-07(b)
says, which MPEP 706.07(h)(VIII) says should be applied in such a situation.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Roger L. Browdy<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Partner <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:7.5pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(23,71,158)">_____________________________________________ <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(23,71,158)">FisherBroyles, LLP<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(23,71,158)">direct: +1 202-277-5198<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(23,71,158)"><a href="mailto:roger.browdy@fisherbroyles.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(70,120,134)">roger.browdy@fisherbroyles.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.fisherbroyles.com/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(23,71,158)">www.fisherbroyles.com</span></a><u><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(23,71,158)"><u></u><u></u></span></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(23,71,158)"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(23,71,158)">The information contained in this e-mail message is only for the personal and confidential use of the intended recipient(s). If you have received this communication
in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail, and delete the original message.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Helvetica Light";color:rgb(23,71,158)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Randall Svihla via Patentpractice<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 5, 2025 1:19 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> For patent practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Randall Svihla <<a href="mailto:rsvihla@nsiplaw.com" target="_blank">rsvihla@nsiplaw.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Patentpractice] questions about new 'IDS size fee'<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Hi, Bill<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">As someone has already answered, you were not required to pay an IDS size fee, and will never have to pay any IDS size fees in this application. However, you need to file a written IDS size
assertion stating that no IDS size is due each time you file an IDS.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I don't think the USPTO will automatically refund the IDS size fee you paid because the USPTO is not supposed to track the number of items that have been submitted. See this FAQ in the quick
reference guide someone else mentioned:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><img border="0" width="576" height="95" style="width: 6in; height: 0.993in;" id="m_-2414384440090557725Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:ii_1956d2737e54cff311"></span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">So you need to file another written IDS size fee assertion stating that no IDS size fee was due, and request a refund of the IDS size fee under 37 CFR 1.26(a) as being paid by mistake.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Good luck.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Best regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Randall S. Svihla<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">NSIP Law<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Washington, D.C.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>William Ahmed via Patentpractice<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 5, 2025 10:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> For Patent Practitioners. This Is Not for Laypersons To Seek Legal Advice. <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> William Ahmed <<a href="mailto:ahmed.william@ymail.com" target="_blank">ahmed.william@ymail.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Patentpractice] questions about new 'IDS size fee'<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Dear List,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">We have an application for which over 200 references were IDSed between it's 2023 filing date and Dec 31, 2024.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Question A --> If a new IDS is filed now, with 10 fresh references, does the USPTO require payment of the 'IDS size fee'? [i.e. the large number of refs were filed pre-Jan
19, 2025]<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">UPDATE -- we filed the IDS and paid the size-fee <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Question B --> If the IDS size fee was NOT required [see Question A] and our IDS included the 'size-declaration' [along with the fee], will the USPTO refund the $800?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Many thanks,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Bill<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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