<div dir="ltr"><div>Thank you all (Krista, David B., SKS, Dale, Tim, Michael, and Roger); you have reminded me to make sure that a '<i>no motivation to combine</i>' argument is made on all 103s, those which make sense of course. I had forgotten this. Gotta make everything 'appeal-ing'</div><div><br></div><div>As to a 103 <i>silver bullet</i>, my 100%'er (yup, so far....) is when I can make an <i>inoperable if combined</i> argument. Mention of Graham factors generally helps to makes'em back down too. </div><div><br></div><div>BC</div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">Brian Cronquist<div>VP Technology & IP</div><div>MonolithIC 3D Inc.</div><div><br></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 14, 2025 at 2:30\u202fPM Roger Browdy via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg-4489594921316574109">
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<p class="MsoNormal">KSR said that evidence of motivation to combine was not a requirement in all cases as it is permissible to rely on common sense. However, KSR and subsequent Fed Cir cases make clear that when basing a rejection on what is essentially \u201cobvious
to try\u201d, the examiner must present evidence of a reasonable expectation of success. I find this to be successful in my chem/biotech practice.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:black">Roger L. Browdy<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Michael B. Comeau via Patentpractice<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 14, 2025 1:03 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> For patent practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Michael B. Comeau <<a href="mailto:mbc@mcgarrybair.com" target="_blank">mbc@mcgarrybair.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Patentpractice] Effectiveness (or not) of arguing lack of motivation to combine references<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Another tactic is arguing that the result of a combination is not a motivation to combine:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.mriplaw.com_blog_lhyc7qy7jvhwj9hn19rxcq6m2vfz5f-3Fformat-3Damp&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=4dEHyuXJuTyTpG3K6gu9wTJWD_PRbf4K9kL19SkPMMyQomBI2wwgLI_RrELIZLxp&m=s5I8BHiFUpbwm9y4PuNIVRsYEcHpf8QD37tLFN4vCGcoPAReb_yaJm81bfUTsjZB&s=AMiWeXB8ySu8-I3y5wMCd-xn1h0okCVIebB7gCCb8tI&e=" target="_blank">https://www.mriplaw.com/blog/lhyc7qy7jvhwj9hn19rxcq6m2vfz5f?format=amp</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"> Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
on behalf of Timothy Snowden via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 14, 2025 12:57:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a> <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Timothy Snowden <<a href="mailto:tdsnowden@outlook.com" target="_blank">tdsnowden@outlook.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Patentpractice] Effectiveness (or not) of arguing lack of motivation to combine references</span>
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<p>Another angle that is sometimes helpful is that the proposed motivation to combine is not supported by logical reasoning underpinned by the
<i>evidence <u>of record</u></i> as a <u>whole</u>. Conceptually similar to David's point (a).<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 3/14/2025 10:58 AM, Dale Quisenberry via Patentpractice wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Some form language I\u2019ve used re item c:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal" style="text-align:justify;line-height:200%">Therefore, the Office Action\u2019s proposed modification is not permitted.
<span class="m_-4489594921316574109xssrfcpassagedeactivated"><i>See In re Fritch</i>, 972 F.2d 1260, 1265 n.12 (\u201cA proposed modification [is] inappropriate for an obviousness inquiry when the modification render[s] the prior art reference inoperable for its intended purpose.\u201d);
<i>In re Ratti</i>, 270 F.2d 810, 813 (CCPA 1959) (holding the suggested combination of references improper under § 103 because it \u201cwould require a substantial reconstruction and redesign of the elements shown in [the prior art reference] as well as a change
in the basic principles under which [that reference\u2019s] construction was designed to operate.\u201d).
<i>See also </i>MPEP § 2143.01(V) (\u201cIf a proposed modification would render the prior art invention being modified unsatisfactory for its intended purpose, then there is no suggestion or motivation to make the proposed modification.\u201d) and (VI)</span> (\u201cIf the
proposed modification or combination of the prior art would change the principle of operation of the prior art invention being modified, then the teachings of the references are not sufficient to render the claims prima facie obvious.\u201d).<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">C. Dale Quisenberry</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Quisenberry Law PLLC</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><b><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">Patentpractice <a href="mailto:patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">
<patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com></a> on behalf of David Boundy via Patentpractice
<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank"><patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Friday, 14 March 2025 at 9:03</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">\u202f</span><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">am<br>
<b>To: </b>For patent practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice.
<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank"><patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com></a>, Krista Jacobsen
<a href="mailto:krista@jacobseniplaw.com" target="_blank"><krista@jacobseniplaw.com></a><br>
<b>Cc: </b>David Boundy <a href="mailto:PatentProcedure@gmail.com" target="_blank"><PatentProcedure@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Patentpractice] Effectiveness (or not) of arguing lack of motivation to combine references</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">Yes and no.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">I argue "no motivation to combine" frequently. My most frequent arguments are</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">(a) the examiner relies on personal observation and common sense, not "substantial evidence," and</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">(b) The law requires a <i>problem</i> in B that motivates solution, modification, combination with a solution in A. The sentence the examiner relies on says "In reference A, apparatus A has advantage A."
Great. advantage A applies to apparatus A. But that has nothing to do with, and says nothing fairly inferring that Apparatus A and advantage A has any relevance to reference B.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">(c) "renders prior art suitable for its intended purpose" and "changes principle of operation" from MPEP 2143.01(V) and (VI)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">(a) and (b) seldom (not never, seldom) succeed with the examiner. (c) is better, but still not a silver bullet. But all three have high (not perfect, but high) success with the Board. When they don't
win, it's almost always because the Board makes up a new rationale (and fails to designate it as a new ground).</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">If you have Westlaw, it's easy to search PTAB decisions for "motivation to combine" and you'll get lots of hits.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">Doreen Trujillo, David Soucy, Ron Katznelson, and Tim Snowden helped me with a big article on appeals for JPTOS. I got markup from the editors this morning, and should have it all worked in within a couple
days. It'll probably be published by end of month. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">On Fri, Mar 14, 2025 at 9:42</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">\u202f</span><span style="font-size:12pt">AM Krista Jacobsen via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">A long time ago, I was told that arguing a lack of motivation to combine references is never successful to traverse a 103 rejection unless the resulting combination is somehow broken (e.g., it doesn\u2019t work
at all, or the combination eliminates some major goal/benefit of the primary reference). This is one of those nuggets that has always stuck with me.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">I often argue, in both office action replies and appeal briefs, that there is a lack of motivation to combine references, even if the combination is feasible but the Examiner's reasoning is flimsy/bogus or
uses hindsight. But I do not think the lack of motivation to combine references has ever been my only argument, so I have always wondered about whether these arguments are actually moving the needle, or if they are just creating a record that the applicant
did not concede the point. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">Because the identification of a credible motivation to combine is part of the Office's burden in a 103 rejection, the pragmatist in me wants to believe that it is possible to traverse and win on the basis
of a lack of motivation to combine the references, even if that is the only argument. But what is the reality? Have you ever traversed and won during examination based solely on a lack of motivation to combine references? (My guess is that I will be able to
find winning appeals based solely on lack of motivation to combine references, though I haven't researched it yet.)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">Best regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">Krista</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">------------------------------------------</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">Krista S. Jacobsen</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">Attorney and Counselor at Law</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">Jacobsen IP Law</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"><a href="mailto:krista@jacobseniplaw.com" target="_blank">krista@jacobseniplaw.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-4489594921316574109xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">T: 408.455.5539</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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