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<p>I really appreciated Jeroen's summary, which is a fair
description of the approach I've found works the best. .</p>
<p>The best suggestion I have for the drip game is what we all
already know, so this is just an underline, not a new point: Know
the prior art - build your broadest claim to distinguish from the
prior art. Then, look at each of the key limitations that
distinguish that claim from the prior art and think like an
examiner applying BRI -- then setup multiple alternative dependent
claims (including some dependent-dependent) as backup points for
beyond-BRI interpretations. Make sure those are well supported in
the spec/drawings. Now you've got an argument for #1 because
usually a drip-drip-drip examiner brings in art that should have
already be brought in on the dependent claims. I find the
dependent-of-dependent claims most helpful here because otherwise
the examiner just slaps in each feature separately without
considering a combination of dependent features (they're not
obligated to although they are supposed to reasonably look ahead).</p>
<p>This works really well for
mechanical/electrical/hold-in-your-hand-product-focused arts. </p>
<p>However, I find a similar drip-drip rejection style most
problematic on 101 rejections where we're having to go through 2-3
round of servoing to the analogies the examiner will accept and
then bringing the claims into line with what the specific features
of the analogized case/PEG example the examiner/SPE has identified
as defining the path to allowance for the specific case. Because
of the subjectivity of the analysis, it's hard to pin this down in
1 round in certain art units. Continuations in this type of
scenario I believe are harmful -- you lose the funnel that you're
leading the examiner down and have to start over. I've typically
avoided appeal of 101 cases, but David is causing me to rethink my
strategy on that -- especially in light of the current PTO
environment.</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/22/2025 10:08 AM, David Boundy via
Patentpractice wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAJwugqGnN++Xa5z8TLqwDwnxz4=h0RuHAAe6XS=Jp4SQrMPAfA@mail.gmail.com">
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<div>I agree with Jeroen. I file very few RCE's. There are
three ways to handle a final OA (if teh Rule 116 paper doesn't
get over the hump) --</div>
<div> -- petition to withdraw premature final (80%+
successful)</div>
<div> -- appeal (60% success at Pre-Appeal, and then after
appeal brief, maybe 50% of the time the examiner gives up
without an Examiner's Answer)</div>
<div> -- RCE</div>
<div>I probably do all three more or less equally. (That is, I
RCE only about 1/3 of finals.)
To get high yield, both the petition and the appeal require
setup in the first reply to first OA. Another email for
another day.
</div>
<div><br>
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<div>The biggest reason for RCE's is examiners that play the
"drip drip drip" game of lousy prior at, then a little better,
then a little better. I don't know of much to do about that
-- does anyone have a suggestion?</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Sep 22, 2025 at
10:57\u202fAM Valensa, Jeroen via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I
dislike RCE\u2019s in general \u2013 the fees are a big part
of the reason. But beyond that, I think that an RCE
(and particularly a second RCE) is emblematic of
inefficient prosecution. My goal is to have the
claims in shape for allowance by the final
rejection. The way to do that is to file the
application with claims that are well-drafted, in
light of the known prior art, to be able to make
good arguments over the expected obviousness
rejections. I still want to be aggressive,
particularly with the independent claims \u2013 a
first-action allowance is not what I\u2019m looking for.
But I don\u2019t want to waste examination rounds trying
to figure out what the actual scope of the invention
should be. Once you get that first non-final, you
should have a good idea of the strength of the prior
art on which the examiner will rely. At that point,
I\u2019m willing to make the necessary claim amendments
to overcome that art. But I\u2019d like to have the
claims in such a shape that, were the examiner to go
final with the same art, I\u2019m willing to take those
claims to appeal. Sometimes there is a nuance to
the examiner\u2019s arguments that are only properly
expressed in the final rejection, and an RCE may be
necessary to make further refinements to the
claims. But in general, I like to have the claims
in good enough shape by the time they are finally
rejected that I am comfortable taking the arguments
to the PTAB.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Quite
often, if the case for patentability is well-argued
in the appeal brief, the examiner will reopen
prosecution anyways. Sometimes you get better
rejections back, but it will be a non-final so
another opportunity to amend the claims if needed in
order to overcome the art, before the examiner again
goes final. Sometime it\u2019s a notice of allowance,
when the examiner realizes that their arguments are
not going to be convincing to the PTAB. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:rgb(0,133,62)">Jeroen
Valensa</span></b><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:rgb(0,133,62)"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:rgb(127,127,127)">Assistant
General Counsel \u2013 Intellectual Property</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span></p>
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<b><span style="color:black">11270 W Park Place</span></b></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">patentpractice-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Carl Oppedahl via
Patentpractice<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, September 20, 2025 5:03
PM<br>
<b>To:</b> For patent practitioners. This is not
for laypersons to seek legal advice. <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Carl Oppedahl <<a href="mailto:carl@oppedahl.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">carl@oppedahl.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Patentpractice] RCE versus
continuation?</span></p>
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<p>Hello folks. I just got done paying the fee for a
second RCE in one of my clients' cases. Ouch!
$2860 for a non-small entity.</p>
<p>I then went to the trouble to add up the filing
fee, search fee, and exam fee that would have been
paid in an ordinary continuation. Looks like that
adds up to $2000. </p>
<p>I note that the number 2000 is smaller than that
number 2860.</p>
<p>Which got me thinking about the question of the
subject line. RCE or continuation?</p>
<p>I guess in most ways the RCE is the better path
despite the need for handing over more money, right?</p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal">
Maybe the case has enough IDS references to be in
IDS-size-penalty world. In the continuation, an
IDS size penalty would need to be paid. The RCE
saves having to pay that penalty.</li>
<li class="MsoNormal">
Maybe there are lots of excess claims in the
case. The RCE saves having to pay again for the
excess claims.</li>
<li class="MsoNormal">
For a continuation, I would have to identify and
upload spec, claims, abstract, and drawings.
Which among other things presents the risk that I
will screw up and upload the wrong file or a wrong
version of a file. The RCE eliminates risk of my
screwing this up, and saves the mouse clicks
required for the uploads.</li>
<li class="MsoNormal">
For the continuation, to avoid the malpractice
risks of DOCX filings, I would have to pay the
$430 penalty. The RCE saves me from having to pay
that fee.</li>
<li class="MsoNormal">
Maybe enough years would have dragged on by now
that the penalty fee for presenting a domestic
benefit claim after so many years would kick in.
The RCE avoids that penalty.</li>
</ul>
<p>What factors favor the continuation? Well, one
thing is, sometimes the client is not sure yet how
the client wants to deal with the most recent
rejection. If so, then the continuation is ideal
because you could (for example) intentionally do
something to trigger a notice of some kind. Put in
a placeholder multiple-dependent claim and not pay
for it, triggering a Notice to pay for the RCE.
Then maybe within two months, cancel the MDC and
along with it, hand in the response to the most
recent rejection. (With the RCE it would have been
required that the response accompany the RCE.)</p>
<p>Did I get the pros and cons right? Are there other
pros and cons that I missed?</p>
</div>
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-- <br>
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