<div dir="ltr"><div><font size="2"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">MPEP 1457(IV) and (V) seem fishy to me. Neither cites any law. If </span>
<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> every step in the chain</span> has <span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">§ 1.57(c) incorporations by reference, then crossing from utility to design seems to me to be classic "more or less than he had a right to claim" and "<span style="color:rgb(31,31,31)">failure of patentee\u2019s attorney to
appreciate the full scope of the invention during prosecution</span>" that the PTO can't abrogate by guidance. Tim proposes to get there via a continuation -- I've only done two reissues in the last two decades, but I don't see any reason why not. It will be an uphill climb against the MPEP (you will have to do a good deal of legal research to make <i><b>sure</b></i> you're right, and then convince the CRU that the MPEP needs to be amended), but if it's valuable enugh, it seems doable to me. <i>Vas-Cath v. Marhurkar</i> seems on point to me. (Is there any difference between "written description" and reissue "same invention?" They seem to be essentially the same. But I've never dug into it.)</span></font></div><div><font size="2"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></font></div><div>
<font size="2"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">President Trump\u2019s Executive Order 13892, <i>Promoting the Rule of Law Through
Transparency and Fairness in Civil Administrative Enforcement and Adjudication</i>,
§ 3 reminds all agencies of long-standing requirements of law:</span></font>
<font size="2"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">subregulatory guidance documents may not be enforced against the public, only
against executive branch employees.</span></font>
</div><div><p class="gmail-BlockText2" style="margin:12pt 0.3in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman""><b>Sec. 3</b> . <i>Proper
Reliance on Guidance Documents.</i> Guidance documents may not be used to
impose new standards of conduct on persons outside the executive branch except
as expressly authorized by law \u2026. When an agency takes an administrative
enforcement action, engages in adjudication, or otherwise makes a determination
that has legal consequence for a person, it must establish a violation of law
by applying statutes or regulations. The agency may not treat noncompliance
with a standard of conduct announced solely in a guidance document as itself a
violation of applicable statutes or regulations. \u2026 </p><br></div><div><font size="2">The Executive Order doesn't have force of law for or against applicants, but I don't know any executive branch employee that's looking for an opportunity to get cross-wise with this president. I can send you underlying case law that <i>does</i> have force of law, and says the same thing as the Executive Order.</font></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Sep 25, 2025 at 12:16\u202fPM George Raynal via Patentpractice <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg849021466416124416">
<div lang="EN-US" style="overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div class="m_849021466416124416WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Palatino Linotype",serif">FWIW, I\u2019ve seen the Board reject this line of argument and distinguish what an application disclosure supports claiming from what an applicant has a right to claim in a particular issued
patent type, concluding \u201cthe lack of a design claim in a utility patent does not render that patent inoperative, and the patentee in this case did not have the right to claim the ornamental appearance in the utility patent.\u201d<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Palatino Linotype",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Palatino Linotype",serif">Prior to 2012, MPEP 1457 only had section IV prohibiting \u201cconversion to utility patent\u201d but 8<sup>th</sup> edition Rev 9 added section V prohibiting \u201cconversion to design patent.\u201d<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Palatino Linotype",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Designs <<a href="mailto:designs-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">designs-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Timothy Snowden via Designs<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 25, 2025 10:47 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:designs@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">designs@oppedahl-lists.com</a>; Patentpractice (Oppedahl-Lists) <<a href="mailto:patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com" target="_blank">patentpractice@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Timothy Snowden <<a href="mailto:tdsnowden@outlook.com" target="_blank">tdsnowden@outlook.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Designs] Continuation Broadening Reissue confirmation of my understanding<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div style="border:1pt solid rgb(156,101,0);padding:2pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12pt;background:rgb(255,235,156)"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:rgb(156,101,0)">CAUTION:</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> This email originated
from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p>Just to add on, here's how I'm thinking through 35 USC 251:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>(a) ... <u></u><u></u></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal">
by reason of the patentee claiming more or less than he had a right to claim in the patent, <b><i>- the applicant had the right to claim design or utility in the original patent</i></b><u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal">
the Director shall, on the surrender of such patent and the payment of the fee required by law, reissue the patent for the invention disclosed in the original patent, and in accordance with a new and amended application, <b><i> - this is the SAME "invention
<u>disclosed </u>in the original patent"</i></b><u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal">
for the unexpired part of the term of the original patent. <b><i>- the design patent would last longer than the utility patent -- but let's assume a terminal disclaimer would probably be required to the other utility patents</i></b><u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal">
No new matter shall be introduced into the application for reissue<b><i> - no new matter is being introduced -- assume that direct quotes are being used from the utility disclosure incorporated by reference</i></b><u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<p>(b) The Director may issue several reissued patents for distinct and separate parts of the thing patented, upon demand of the applicant, and upon payment of the required fee for a reissue for each of such reissued patents.<b><i> - wouldn't design and utility
be "distinct and separate parts of the thing patented"? Just like in the original priority chain where both utility and design were continuations of an original application.</i></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 9/25/2025 9:18 AM, Timothy Snowden via Designs wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<p>I've encountered a fairly uncommon scenario and just want to run this thought process by all of you to double check myself. I'm cross-posting to designs and patent practice because it relates to both.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Assume there's a proper continuation chain of applications (all issued) including utilities and designs. A design patent is the only patent issued in the last 2 years, and so the only patent eligible for broadening reissue. Assume for the sake of discussion
that subject matter recapture and original invention are not an issue here.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><b>QUESTION: If I file 2 applications in this order:</b><u></u><u></u></p>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal">
a proper broadening reissue application of the design patent (claiming a patentably distinct design that is properly supported in the original application), and then<u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal">
a <i>continuation</i> broadening reissue (not a regular/Bauman type) <b><i>utility</i></b> application<u></u><u></u></li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u>Would the USPTO reject the <i>continuation </i>reissue as improperly trying to convert from a design to a utility? (MPEP 1457) </u></b>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><b><u>Does anybody have any experience (practical with the USPTO's response) or thoughts (based on the statutes)?</u></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Just to be clear: broadening reissue application #1 would be a design. Application #2 (continuation reissue application) would be a utility.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Here's where I'm stuck: because it is a continuation <i>reissue </i>application, does the inability to 'convert' apply? I can see an argument that it is still a reissue application of the design patent, so no go. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p>However, I can also see that: <u></u><u></u></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal">
there was an error in the design - applicant claimed less design than they should have. <u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal">
There is no new matter because the design patent incorporated by reference (at least via the priority chain) the entire specification of the parent utility applications. <u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal">
Assume there is no extension of time -- the utility patent 20 year from initial filing term would be less than the design patent 15 year from issue term.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<p>Thanks in advance!<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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