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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Next LT Pro",sans-serif;color:black'>In my experience, Canadian Patent Examiners give a lot of deference to a positive report from the EP.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Next LT Pro",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Next LT Pro",sans-serif;color:navy'>Miriam Paton </span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Next LT Pro",sans-serif;color:navy'>|<b> </b>Registered Patent Agent | INTEGRAL IP<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Next LT Pro",sans-serif;color:#333399'>1370 Don Mills Road, Suite 300, Toronto, Ontario M3B 3N7 Canada<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=IT style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Next LT Pro",sans-serif;color:#333399'>TEL 1.416.630.0071 ext. 2 <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=IT style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Next LT Pro",sans-serif;color:#333399'><a href="https://integralip.com">https://integralip.com</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Next LT Pro",sans-serif'><a href="http://ca.linkedin.com/in/miriampaton"><span lang=IT style='font-size:8.0pt'>http://ca.linkedin.com/in/miriampaton</span></a></span><span lang=IT style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Next LT Pro",sans-serif;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Next LT Pro",sans-serif;color:#666699'>Notice: This email contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) named above. Any other distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete it from your computer and notify me. Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Pct <pct-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Scott Nielson via Pct<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 9, 2025 9:35 AM<br><b>To:</b> pct@oppedahl-lists.com<br><b>Cc:</b> Scott Nielson <scnielson@outlook.com><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Pct] Different ISA and IPEA?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif;color:black'>Thanks for this. What countries, other than China, seem to be particularly impressed with a positive report from the EP? JP and US don't seem to be impressed by a positive report from any other country (curious if your experience is different).<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id=Signature><p><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif;color:#1F3864'>Scott Nielson</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif;color:black'>801-660-4400</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="98%" align=center></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> Pct <<a href="mailto:pct-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com">pct-bounces@oppedahl-lists.com</a>> on behalf of Timothy Snowden via Pct <<a href="mailto:pct@oppedahl-lists.com">pct@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 09, 2025 6:45 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:pct@oppedahl-lists.com">pct@oppedahl-lists.com</a> <<a href="mailto:pct@oppedahl-lists.com">pct@oppedahl-lists.com</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> Timothy Snowden <<a href="mailto:tdsnowden@outlook.com">tdsnowden@outlook.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Pct] Different ISA and IPEA? <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p>As a side note, I note that I frequently recommend clients to use IPEA/EP even when we are planning to have more than 15 claims. If they raise unity of invention, just pay the additional examination fees (yes, you might have to pay additional search fees and additional examination fees, although it's relatively rare).<o:p></o:p></p><p>The amendment requirements are strict, but once you know how to work with them (or are using high quality EP counsel), then they're not actually that bad -- many other countries also are very strict on their amendments, so I tend to view it as a positive: if I can make an amendment under EP, then it's <i>almost</i> certain that anywhere else is going to accept it too.<br>Regarding the more than 1 type of claims, I almost always demand an oral consult if we enter Chapter II proceedings, and I explain to the EP examiner that I understand that they have to make an <i>observation</i> that certain claim practices (multiple independent claims of same type, etc.) will have to be amended in EP national stage, but I politely point out that these are not <i>international <u>defects</u></i> -- almost all EP examiners are very understanding of this, and sympathize with the goal of determining <i>inventive step</i>, and leveraging the high quality EP work product without necessarily conforming to EP-specific rules until EP national stage is entered.<o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><p>I enjoy working with KR -- they are very helpful, especially the US help center. However, I rarely get the opportunity to use them because most of the countries my clients are focused on a positive report from EP makes a much bigger impact.<o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><p>To sum it up in EP -- the amendments I understand, but I think that is actually a feature. The numbers / types of claims can 99+% of the time be cabined into a simple observation informing the applicant of changes required in regional/national stage because they are EP rules, not PCT rules. (So are the amendments, but that is a matter of interpreting what is permissible as an amendment so has a direct impact on a finding of inventive step).<o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 6/8/2025 8:30 PM, Scott Nielson via Pct wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif;color:black'>Thanks for the detailed explanation Carl. I reported the bug in ePCT about the Philippines being an option as the IPEA. Also, I had forgotten that the IPEA/US uses examiners to perform the examination. The risk that they won't do anything before the 30 month deadline is high enough that I cannot imagine ever choosing IPEA/US. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif;color:black'>I noticed something else that gives me pause. <a href="https://pctlegal.wipo.int/eGuide/view-doc.xhtml?doc-code=US&doc-lang=en#RO" title="https://pctlegal.wipo.int/eGuide/view-doc.xhtml?doc-code=US&doc-lang=en#RO">Annex C for RO/US</a> says Australia is a competent search authority for only 250 PCT applications per quarter. There are no subject matter limitations.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif;color:black'>However, <a href="https://pctlegal.wipo.int/eGuide/view-doc.xhtml?doc-code=IB&doc-lang=en#RO" title="https://pctlegal.wipo.int/eGuide/view-doc.xhtml?doc-code=IB&doc-lang=en#RO">Annex C for RO/IB</a> says "Where the applicant is a national or a resident of the United States of America, the Australian Patent Office may be chosen as the competent International Searching Authority and/or International Preliminary Examining Authority for certain international applications only. For further details concerning which international applications this is restricted to, refer to Official Notices (PCT Gazette) dated 23 October 2008, pages 131 et seq."<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif;color:black'>The <a href="https://www.wipo.int/export/sites/www/pct/en/docs/official-notices/officialnotices08.pdf" title="https://www.wipo.int/export/sites/www/pct/en/docs/official-notices/officialnotices08.pdf">PCT Gazette dated 23 Oct 2008</a> at p. 131 says IP Australia will not be a competent ISA or IPEA for PCT apps filed by US applicants "where such applications contain one or more claims related to mechanical engineering or analogous fields of technology." It then goes on to list a LOT of technology IP Australia will not handle.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif;color:black'>Do you know why Annex C for RO/US does not list any subject matter restrictions for ISA/AU or IPEA/AU but Annex C for RO/IB does? I wonder if the subject matter restrictions were removed at some point and Annex C for RO/US was updated but not for RO/IB.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif;color:black'>Even though Annex C for RO/US lists a number of competent ISAs, it seems like there are issues with many of them, particularly AU, IL, JP, and PH (either limited numbers of searches or limited subject matter). That said, I have used JP and PH without problems so maybe I got lucky. The safe choices appear to be EP, KR, SG, and US. SG is almost as expensive as EP so it's hard to see why anyone would choose it.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif;color:black'>The bottom line is that the choice of ISA for a large entity is EP for a high quality, expensive search or KR for a cheap search. For a small entity, the choice is the same except now the US is also an option for the cheap search because it is close in price to KR. In rare cases where circumstances warrant, it might be worth choosing SG or rolling the dice with AU, IL, JP, or PH.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id="x_Signature"><p><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif;color:#1F3864'>Scott Nielson</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Serif",serif;color:black'>801-660-4400</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="98%" align=center></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> Carl Oppedahl <a href="mailto:carl@oppedahl.com"><carl@oppedahl.com></a><br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 08, 2025 4:05 AM<br><b>To:</b> For users of the PCT and ePCT. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <a href="mailto:pct@oppedahl-lists.com"><pct@oppedahl-lists.com></a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Pct] Different ISA and IPEA?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 6/7/2025 9:36 AM, Scott Nielson via Pct wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>When does it make sense to select a patent office as the ISA and a different patent office as the international preliminary examination authority (IPEA)? <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I have a client that likes EP as the ISA but not as the IPEA due to the EP's strict amendment requirements (primarily basis and intermediate generalization issues). According to ePCT, it is possible to choose KR, US, or PH (Philippines) as a competent IPEA instead of EP (there is some uncertainty about whether PH is competent; ePCT shows it as an option but the US - Annex C of the PCT Applicant's Guide lists PH as only competent if it was the ISA).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The only reason I can think of for doing this is as a potentially cheap way to get a favorable IPRP and qualify for the patent prosecution highway (PPH). The cost for each IPEA is EP=1915EUR, US=880USD (can be reduced with small/micro entity discount), KR=330USD, and PH=300USD.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The general idea would be to file the PCT application with claims that are more like US claims (3 independent, 20 total) and select EP as the ISA. Once the International Search Report is issued, request preliminary examination with KR or US as the IPEA with the goal of getting a favorable IPRP so national phase applications: (i) can be expedited pursuant to the PPH and (ii) not be limited by EP claim requirements (e.g., single apparatus/method claim; total of 15 claims, etc.).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Any thoughts on any of this?<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><p>When I teach a 2-day PCT seminar (I have taught two within the past year and another one is coming up) I spend time on this.<o:p></o:p></p><p>See for example <a href="https://www.oppedahl.com/cle/2022PCTTrainingSession8.pdf">these slides</a> at page 15, slide 29. That slide reminds us that there are lots of "universal acceptors" -- IPEAs that are happy to take your client's money for an international preliminary examination regardless of whom your client selected earlier as an ISA. <o:p></o:p></p><p>Yes you are correct that <a href="https://pctlegal.wipo.int/eGuide/view-doc.xhtml?doc-code=PH&doc-lang=en#IPEA">Annex E for IPEA/PH</a> says that "[t]he Intellectual Property Office of the Philippines may act as International Preliminary Examining Authority only if the international search is or has been carried out by it." And you are correct that ePCT says the opposite.<o:p></o:p></p><p>We learn from <a href="https://pctlegal.wipo.int/eGuide/view-doc.xhtml?doc-code=US&doc-lang=en#IPEA">Annex E for IPEA/US</a> that IPEA/US is not quite a universal acceptor. It is a universal acceptor in the special case where ... well here is what it says:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p>The USPTO may act as International Preliminary Examining Authority only if the international search is or has been performed by that Office, except that the USPTO may act as International Preliminary Examining Authority for international applications filed by at least one resident or national of the United States of America with the USPTO or the International Bureau of WIPO as receiving Office where the selected ISA is competent for residents or nationals of the United States of America.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p> Keep in mind that this condition is evaluated at the time of entry into Chapter II of the Treaty -- namely at the time of the filing of the Demand. So for example an applicant that changed domicile or citizenship between the international filing date and the demand date might find that it is unable to use IPEA/US as an IPEA under this complicated provision.<o:p></o:p></p><p>But I digress. So the bundle of questions, as presented, includes the notion of actively choosing to purchase the services of an IPEA that is not the same Office as the ISA that had been previously hired.<o:p></o:p></p><p>It is recalled that the ISA work for ISA/US is not carried out by members of USPTO's Examining Corps. It is carried out by one of several private contractors who pitched cheap enough prices to the USPTO to be awarded contracts for this work. So if you pick ISA/US you don't get a member of the USPTO Examining Corps.<o:p></o:p></p><p>it is also recalled that against all odds, the IPEA work for IPEA/US <b><i>is carried out by members of the USPTO's Examining Corps.</i></b> But it is also recalled that sometimes when you pick IPEA/US, the IPRP shows up way too late, well past 30 months, so that the client is forced to make the difficult and expensive decisions about national-phase entry without having yes received the results from IPEA/US.<o:p></o:p></p><p>No matter how many reasons you consider for picking an IPEA other than IPEA/EP, the plain fact that is worth more than money is that if you pick IPEA/EP, and if IPEA/EP happens to agree that some claims are patentable, then the EPO (at the time of national/regional-phase entry) will almost surely "drink its own champagne". Personally I rank this fact as a fact that wins out over nearly all other facts.<o:p></o:p></p><p>I would hire experienced and trusted EP counsel at this stage to handle a Demand directed to EPO, who would know how to handle what you describe as "EP's strict amendment requirements". <o:p></o:p></p><p>I encourage any reader who has not fallen asleep after this long posting to consider signing up for my next 2-day PCT seminar. If you don't want to miss it, be sure that (a) you are a member of the PCT listserv, and (b) you are subscribed to my blog.<o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></blockquote></div></body></html>