[E-trademarks] [EXT] Re: Hot Take on Improvements Needed for Design Descriptions/Codes/Searching
Alex Butterman
abutterman at dbllawyers.com
Tue Dec 19 20:38:58 EST 2023
My experience with the WIPO Global Brand Database was the same as yours, Jaclyn. I have no idea why that search system does not work as advertised or is so unnecessarily complicated.
It is my impression that software engineering and AI are going to develop to search designs the way you envision design searching should occur long before resources will be devoted to developing a new coding system like you described, unless that system is programmed into AI software. In fact, I think there are a number of private, commercial search vendors who are already offering that, though their systems need a good deal of work and refinement.
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From: E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com> On Behalf Of Jaclyn Ionin via E-trademarks
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2023 06:15 PM
To: Edward Timberlake <ed at timberlakelaw.com>
Cc: Jaclyn Ionin <jaclyn at ioninlaw.com>; For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [E-trademarks] Hot Take on Improvements Needed for Design Descriptions/Codes/Searching
The idea isn't to limit by those things (live, registered, coordinated classes) though when I've already specified goods - it's to limit in ways that gets the list down to only marks that look like the searched mark and gets rid of the ones that don't. I was asking if there were ways to do that.
I haven't found any US marks that are similar enough to warrant copying a search strategy. And in general, if you happen to know of a similar mark, that's great, but otherwise, I think the things I proposed would be more reliable and valuable on a broader scale. We shouldn't have to reverse engineer searches when the system could be better designed to allow for more certainty and clarity.
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On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 5:40 PM Edward Timberlake <ed at timberlakelaw.com<mailto:ed at timberlakelaw.com>> wrote:
One approach would be to start limiting by the usual criteria (live, registered, in coordinated classes) and see if that gets the results down to a feasible number. (Because of the way the images are displayed on the WIPO page, scanning 1000 images isn't altogether out of the question.)
Another approach (back at the USPTO) would be to look at some live registrations (ideally registered quite recently) of your mark, or marks that could be considered somewhat similar, then look (in TSDR) at the the X-Searches to see how people who search such things all day long approached this problem.
Sincerely,
Ed Timberlake
Board Certified Specialist in Trademark Law<https://www.nclawspecialists.gov/for-the-public/find-a-board-certified-specialist/results/detail/?id=29473>
Timberlake Law<http://timberlakelaw.com/>
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On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 5:05 PM Jaclyn Ionin <jaclyn at ioninlaw.com<mailto:jaclyn at ioninlaw.com>> wrote:
As an update, I just tried a search for my client's design mark in the WIPO Global Brand Database.
For a simple stylized three letter ambigram, searching by "shape similarity" and a list of goods, I received 125,641 U.S. results, with the first page (sorted by most relevant) bearing absolutely no resemblance to the mark whatsoever (all full word marks, not a similar shape or font, or even the same letters...)
I also searched by "conceptual similarity" and the list of goods, and received 7,574 U.S. results, with the first page (again sorted by most relevant) bearing not even a slight resemblance to the searched mark.
"Composite similarity" produced 125,641 results in the US with nothing on the first page bearing any resemblance.
Open to any additional tips as to how to best utilize this search tool, as it does not appear to be as simple as a google image search.
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On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 4:31 PM Jaclyn Ionin <jaclyn at ioninlaw.com<mailto:jaclyn at ioninlaw.com>> wrote:
Thanks for that - will try it out. Hadn't thought of going through there for US-only searches.
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On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 4:08 PM Edward Timberlake <ed at timberlakelaw.com<mailto:ed at timberlakelaw.com>> wrote:
If you haven't tried it, the WIPO Global Brand Database provides several options for searching by image ("Search By Brand Logo") and includes USPTO records (no design search codes required).
https://www.wipo.int/reference/en/branddb/
Sincerely,
Ed Timberlake
Board Certified Specialist in Trademark Law<https://www.nclawspecialists.gov/for-the-public/find-a-board-certified-specialist/results/detail/?id=29473>
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On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 3:44 PM Jaclyn Ionin via E-trademarks <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>> wrote:
I know we have much bigger fish to fry with NEW TESS, but am I the only one who is frustrated with how archaic, incomplete, and poorly managed the design mark categorization and searching is? The standards for descriptions are so loose and have no consistency, and the design codes do not come close to covering all the visual elements that could be used. This results in having to search for broad terms that COULD encompass your mark, but also end up producing tons of results that definitely do not apply... OR you simply miss marks that are actually quite similar just because the elements they share are not elements that can be searched for within the confines of the existing system, or COULD be searched for, but aren't REQUIRED to be included in the description, or are included in the description, but without any standardized uniform language across the board. Design searching should not be this inefficient.
The USPTO should employ actual designers to evaluate each mark and properly craft consistent descriptions, or at minimum have actual designers develop standardized formula models for descriptions. For example:
* styles of fonts (script, serif, sans serif, bubble, block, and preferably even more specific like gothic serif, wedge serif, slab serif, etc.) should be a required inclusion for any stylized mark or design mark with literal elements;
* if a mark is an ambigram, or has other symmetrical elements, that should be a required inclusion;
* consistent ways to describe directions of letters or lines (diagonal from top left to bottom right, etc.)
* consistent ways to describe spacing and sizing comparisons between elements (using technical terms like kerning or any other consistent term that would then be searchable)
* consistent and required categorizations of different graphic styles that would actually help to find marks that have a similar feel to your clients' mark(s), despite maybe not both having a banana or a cow or the same word in them (illustration, cartoon, watercolor, dimensional, geometric, typographic, art deco, pop art, bauhaus, graffiti)
Also wouldn't hurt for the USPTO to simply add an image search like Google Images to TESS. If they really wanted to make our lives easier.
I come from a (limited) design background, so maybe I'm an outlier in feeling this way, but I know this does not need to be this difficult and inefficient.
Just curious whether anyone shares the sentiment or has any insight as to whether this type of improvement has been suggested or explored in the past.
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