[E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta

O'Connell Jr., Robert robert.oconnell at orrick.com
Wed Nov 27 00:17:57 UTC 2024 

Meanwhile, I have a different question about the new application form in TM Center Beta.  My paralegal and I have been tentatively trying it out, and we did (or tried to do) our first use-based application today.  And when I received the link to review prior to sending to the client for e-signature, I was surprised that I was unable to view the specimen that had been uploaded.  Am I missing something?  My paralegal called the Trademark Assistance Center and they confirmed that only the person who prepared the form (my paralegal) can see the specimen; anyone to whom she forwards the link cannot.

So it appears that TM Center Beta is expecting applicants (whose applications are prepared by outside counsel) to sign something under the pains and penalties of perjury, without letting them see everything they are signing.  Again, am I missing something?  What possible justification can there be for that?

SMH, as the kids would say.


[cid:image002.png at 01DB4037.DF3234B0]
Robert M. O'Connell, Jr.  Of Counsel [V-card] <https://www.orrick.com/api/sitecore/PersonnelPage/vCard?personnelGuid=D70E3581-E851-4059-998C-CB6F6087D51C>
Intellectual Property | Boston<https://www.google.com/maps/place/222+Berkeley+St+%232000,+Boston,+MA+02116/@42.3506611,-71.075501,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x89e37a74ad98b309:0xe4dba0ff17883d10!8m2!3d42.3506611!4d-71.0733123>
T: 1-617-880-1877
robert.oconnell at orrick.com<mailto:robert.oconnell at orrick.com>




From: E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com> On Behalf Of Emil Ali via E-trademarks
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2024 6:11 PM
To: For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
Cc: Emil Ali <emil at mccabeali.com>
Subject: Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta


 [EXTERNAL]
As someone who works in the ethics space, I get this question about a lot of various companies.  I’ll address it as to “LegalZoom,” which is what you specifically asked.

To the extent you are seeing filings from that company, my understanding is that they are in fact coming from a real law firm— LZ Legal Services.  These applications are reviewed and filed by real lawyers.  Therefore, they are permitted to practice just like you and I would be.

On the other hand, I also get asked about other online filing providers where the applicant never speaks to an attorney, and they are filed “pro se.”  Many members of this listserv likely receive clients who get Office Actions associated with those filings, and my understanding is those types of companies do not do Office Action responses, and don’t otherwise have attorneys involved in the process.

As to why the USPTO has not taken action against those  (latter) companies who are filing pro se marks—my guess is as good as yours.  However, one can surmise that they are busy focusing on solo practitioners who work with applicants from China.   For those of you that don’t know, Brad Behar, outside counsel for Amazon, has been filing “anonymous” grievances with the USPTO against almost twenty trademark lawyers.  Contrary to what Amazon says, it appears that they do maintain a blacklist, and do take action against those who complain about being put on the blacklist.


Emil J. Ali
PARTNER
P: 310.596.1234  |  C: 202.556.3645  |  F: 310.649.7890
emil at mccabeali.com<mailto:emil at mccabeali.com>
[McCabe & Ali, LLP]
13337 South Street, Suite 555, Cerritos, CA 90703
O: 877.633.4097  | mccabeali.com


________________________________
From: E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com>> on behalf of Laura Geyer via E-trademarks <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2024 2:48 PM
To: For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>>
Cc: Laura Geyer <lgeyer at ndgallilaw.com<mailto:lgeyer at ndgallilaw.com>>
Subject: Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta

And here’s where I note that a decent number of “oh, crap, my app got refused why?” clients and potential client contacts are because of a LegalZoom filing. Why are they even able to operate?

Laura Talley Geyer | Of Counsel

ND Galli Law LLC
1200 G Street, N.W., Ste 800
Washington, DC 20005
Tel: (202) 599-9019 (direct)
https://ndgallilaw.com/laura-geyer/<https://ndgallilaw.com/laura-geyer/>
https://ndgallilaw.com/<https://ndgallilaw.com/>

From: E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com>> On Behalf Of Michael D. Steger via E-trademarks
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2024 4:33 PM
To: 'For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice.' <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>>
Cc: Michael D. Steger <msteger at steger-law.com<mailto:msteger at steger-law.com>>
Subject: Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta

EXTERNAL EMAIL
Keep in mind also that many filings by folks that use non-attorney services show up as pro se filings.  If one uses LegalZoom, then  one’s own name and email address are listed as the attorney of record.

From: E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com>> On Behalf Of Kevin Grierson via E-trademarks
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2024 4:28 PM
To: For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>>
Cc: Kevin Grierson <kgrierson at cm.law<mailto:kgrierson at cm.law>>
Subject: Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta

If I understand Pam’s statement correctly, she was indicating that most applications are filed either by pro se filers OR by attorneys who aren’t TM specialists.  I’d still be surprised if the percent of knowledgeable filers was as low as Pam mentioned, but given the quality of the filings I’ve seen in a lot of my searches, it wouldn’t surprise me if more than 50% of filers are either pro se or lawyers who “dabble” in trademark law.  If you add in the trademark mills, that percentage could be substantially higher.


Kevin Grierson​​​​

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Partner

  757-726-7799<tel:757-726-7799>

  866-521-5663

  kgrierson at cm.law<mailto:kgrierson at cm.law>

Please note: Culhane Meadows is now CM Law

From: E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com>> On Behalf Of Ken Boone via E-trademarks
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2024 4:18 PM
To: For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>>
Cc: Ken Boone <boondogles at hotmail.com<mailto:boondogles at hotmail.com>>
Subject: Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta

EXTERNAL EMAIL
If it helps, the two searches below suggest that 400,962/511,679 = 78.362% of TEAS filings for calendar year 2024 have an attorney of record entry (where, in theory, pro se applicants do not include an attorney of record in their TEAS applications).

511,679 results for FD:[20240101 TO 20241231] AND SN:98*

400,962 results for FD:[20240101 TO 20241231] AND SN:98* AND AT:*


____________________
Ken Boone
________________________________
From: E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com>> on behalf of Crane, Susan via E-trademarks <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2024 2:59 PM
To: For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>>
Cc: Crane, Susan <susan.crane at wyndham.com<mailto:susan.crane at wyndham.com>>
Subject: Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta


I found an article in the Trademark Reporter with statistics up through 2019 that showed appx. 75% filed by an attorney.



Susan L. Crane

Group Vice President, Legal

Intellectual Property, Brands & Marketing



Wyndham Hotels & Resorts, Inc.

22 Sylvan Way

Parsippany, NJ 07054

O (973) 753-6455

M (973) 879-3420

Susan.Crane at wyndham.com<mailto:Susan.Crane at wyndham.com>







From: E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com>> On Behalf Of Janice Housey via E-trademarks
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2024 3:44 PM
To: For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>>
Cc: Janice Housey <jhousey at litmuslaw.com<mailto:jhousey at litmuslaw.com>>
Subject: Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta



Pam— If I read your email correctly you are saying that 15% of applications are filed at the USPTO by trademark attorneys? This seems widely inaccurate. I am sure like many on this list when I am analyzing a mark cited as a 2(d) and/or one raised

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Pam—



If I read your email correctly you are saying that 15% of applications are filed at the USPTO by trademark attorneys?  This seems widely inaccurate.  I am sure like many on this list when I am analyzing a mark cited as a 2(d) and/or one raised in a search--  I look to see who filed the application etc. as part of my analysis.  While this is not a scientific method, I would say that it is more like 85% of applications and registrations I need to look at in more depth are filed by a trademark practitioner.  Of course, under current rules ANY application (or maintenance document) filed on behalf of a non-U.S. owner, must be filed by a U.S. attorney.  That alone would seem to raise the numbers.  What are others seeing in terms of likely percentage of applications filed by IP attorneys?



Janice Housey

Litmus Law PLLC



4 Weems Lane #240

Winchester, Virginia 22601

703.957.5274 office
703.851.6737 cell



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From: E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com>> On Behalf Of Kevin Grierson via E-trademarks
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2024 11:52 AM
To: For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>>
Cc: Kevin Grierson <kgrierson at cm.law<mailto:kgrierson at cm.law>>
Subject: Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta



That’s an interesting insight, thanks.    I’d be really curious to see a demographic breakdown of filers, if such a thing exists.



Kevin Grierson​​​​

|

Partner

  757-726-7799<tel:757-726-7799>

  866-521-5663

  kgrierson at cm.law<mailto:kgrierson at cm.law>

Please note: Culhane Meadows is now CM Law



From: E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com>> On Behalf Of Pamela Chestek via E-trademarks
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2024 11:46 AM
To: e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
Cc: Pamela Chestek <pamela at chesteklegal.com<mailto:pamela at chesteklegal.com>>
Subject: Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta



EXTERNAL EMAIL

I asked a trademark examining attorney one time what their estimate was on the number of applications they process that are from experienced trademark attorneys, rather than pro se or the passing lawyer who does applications as part of their general practice. Their estimate was 15%. We are a very small part of the user base and they won't be optimizing for us.

Pam

Pamela S. Chestek
Chestek Legal
PLEASE NOTE OUR NEW MAILING ADDRESS
4641 Post St.
Unit 4316
El Dorado Hills, CA 95762
+1 919-800-8033
pamela at chesteklegal
www.chesteklegal.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.chesteklegal.com/__;!!Nf401RNTQFE14GfWW3o!lDgTKvxMeiROH7S0BWfLX4Nfd6BlP3qm6hLZDyN7PUSqv9WsogL1m3caK_kB4-UzkPWbgB36zyzfdVlLsUwimdDqefl0lVY$>

On 11/22/2024 8:40 AM, Kevin Grierson via E-trademarks wrote:

I’m all for making the USPTO as accessible as possible.  But making the trademark filing center mobile-friendly to the detriment of the majority of the user base doesn’t seem like a particularly sensible approach.  They could, for example, have created an app for mobile users, or they could have created separate versions of the website for mobile devices and desktops.  They could even have created two separate filing paths, one with more explicit steps and instructions (and more screens) for pro se filers and another for regular filers that more closely resembles what we have in TEAS now.



And I have to wonder what percent of filers fall into the category you describe.  I don’t imagine many people who live on less than $30K and have no internet access other than their phones are going to be willing or able to pay $350 or more for a trademark application, and unlike the patent side of the PTO, there’s no discount for small or micro entities for TM filings.



Kevin Grierson​​​​

|

Partner

  757-726-7799<tel:757-726-7799>

  866-521-5663

  kgrierson at cm.law<mailto:kgrierson at cm.law>

Please note: Culhane Meadows is now CM Law



From: E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com><mailto:e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com> On Behalf Of Rachael Dickson via E-trademarks
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2024 11:27 AM
To: For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com><mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
Cc: Rachael Dickson <rachael at catalyticlaw.com><mailto:rachael at catalyticlaw.com>
Subject: Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta



EXTERNAL EMAIL

I suspect that this feature is not, in fact, intended for trademark attorneys, but for the 15% of U.S. adults who are smartphone-only internet users - who have a smartphone, but do not have home internet access. This is seen most commonly in adults with an annual income of $30,000 or less.



Seems like it would be nice if they could file a trademark application too, even if they don't have access to a computer, yes?



https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/fact-sheet/mobile/?tabItem=011fca0d-9756-4f48-b352-d58f343696bf#smartphone-dependency-over-time<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.pewresearch.org/internet/fact-sheet/mobile/?tabItem=011fca0d-9756-4f48-b352-d58f343696bf*smartphone-dependency-over-time__;Iw!!Nf401RNTQFE14GfWW3o!lDgTKvxMeiROH7S0BWfLX4Nfd6BlP3qm6hLZDyN7PUSqv9WsogL1m3caK_kB4-UzkPWbgB36zyzfdVlLsUwimdDqSf0ma4Q$>



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Rachael Dickson (she/her)

Trademark Attorney | Catalytic Law

[cell]  (703) 831-7340<tel:7038317340>

[email]  Rachael at CatalyticLaw.com<mailto:Rachael at CatalyticLaw.com>

[website]  www.catalyticlaw.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.catalyticlaw.com/__;!!Nf401RNTQFE14GfWW3o!lDgTKvxMeiROH7S0BWfLX4Nfd6BlP3qm6hLZDyN7PUSqv9WsogL1m3caK_kB4-UzkPWbgB36zyzfdVlLsUwimdDqxLFYmac$>

[twitter]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/twitter.com/TudorsAndTMs__;!!Nf401RNTQFE14GfWW3o!lDgTKvxMeiROH7S0BWfLX4Nfd6BlP3qm6hLZDyN7PUSqv9WsogL1m3caK_kB4-UzkPWbgB36zyzfdVlLsUwimdDqA8PhFT8$>  [linkedin] <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.linkedin.com/in/rachaeldickson/__;!!Nf401RNTQFE14GfWW3o!lDgTKvxMeiROH7S0BWfLX4Nfd6BlP3qm6hLZDyN7PUSqv9WsogL1m3caK_kB4-UzkPWbgB36zyzfdVlLsUwimdDqSfLR2Co$>   [instagram] <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.instagram.com/tudorsandtms/__;!!Nf401RNTQFE14GfWW3o!lDgTKvxMeiROH7S0BWfLX4Nfd6BlP3qm6hLZDyN7PUSqv9WsogL1m3caK_kB4-UzkPWbgB36zyzfdVlLsUwimdDqzsVDuJg$>





On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 10:59 AM Kevin Grierson via E-trademarks <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>> wrote:

I mean, I’m sure that there are examples of programmers designing a UI who were more out of touch with their user base, but I honestly can’t think of any offhand.



Kevin Grierson​​​​

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Partner

  757-726-7799<tel:757-726-7799>

  866-521-5663

  kgrierson at cm.law<mailto:kgrierson at cm.law>

Please note: Culhane Meadows is now CM Law



From: E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com>> On Behalf Of Mark Kaufman via E-trademarks
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2024 10:40 AM
To: Annette Heller <tmattorneyheller at aol.com<mailto:tmattorneyheller at aol.com>>; For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>>
Cc: Mark Kaufman <kaufman at kaufmankahn.com<mailto:kaufman at kaufmankahn.com>>
Subject: Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta



EXTERNAL EMAIL

“Oh, the kids are gonna love this…”



Thanks,

Mark

Mark S. Kaufman

Kaufman & Kahn, LLP

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On Nov 22, 2024, at 10:39 AM, Annette Heller via E-trademarks <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>> wrote:



Why would one file an application on a mobile phone?  No I will not be filing on a phone!!!!



Annette







Annette P. Heller
Trademark/Copyright Attorney
TM Law & Associates
400 Chesterfield Center Ste 400
Chesterfield [St Louis] MO 63017

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314-469-2610 Fax 314-469-4850

In a message dated 11/22/2024 9:07:50 AM Central Standard Time, e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com> writes:



Have to shake my head at the top feature they tout on this email for the new TM Center—“a mobile-friendly design”?!?  Maybe I’m just a dinosaur, but are any of you preparing and filing trademark applications from your smartphone?



Kevin Grierson​​​​

|

Partner

<image001.png>





<image002.png>

  757-726-7799

<image003.png>

  866-521-5663

<image004.png>

  kgrierson at cm.law<mailto:kgrierson at cm.law>

Please note: Culhane Meadows is now CM Law





From: U.S. Patent and Trademark Office <subscriptioncenter at subscriptions.uspto.gov<mailto:subscriptioncenter at subscriptions.uspto.gov>>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2024 10:03 AM
To: Kevin Grierson <kgrierson at cm.law<mailto:kgrierson at cm.law>>
Subject: Try Trademark Center beta



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[cid:image020.png at 01DB4037.DF3234B0]



Trademark Alert

[cid:image021.jpg at 01DB4037.DF3234B0]



Try Trademark Center beta

[Trademark                                                           Center Beta                                                           Graphic Nov                                                           2024]

This summer, the USPTO launched the beta version of our brand-new Trademark Center. For six months, we’ve offered the Trademark Electronic Application System (TEAS) and Trademark Center initial applications in parallel and used your valuable feedback to refine the new application.

On January 18, 2025, we will retire the TEAS initial application forms. Until then, you have the option to file your new application in either Trademark Center or TEAS. The cost to file remains the same in both systems.

Transition from TEAS

Over the next few years, we’ll gradually transition all trademark forms from TEAS and TEAS International (TEASi) to Trademark Center.

Trademark Center features

We designed Trademark Center with valuable feedback from attorneys, paralegals, entrepreneurs, and business owners. Our new system offers: 

  1.  A mobile-friendly design 
  2.  A new, guided user interface 
  3.  Drafts that automatically save every 60 seconds 
  4.  Status tracking in a new filing docket 
  5.  Transparent application costs that update as you go   
  6.  Prompts to complete commonly omitted information, like personal name consent, translation, and transliteration
  7.  Improved character limits for street, city, and docket number fields
  8.  A draft sharing feature for attorneys and their sponsored support staff

Training

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