[E-trademarks] sending specimens separately (was Try Trademark Center beta)
Carl Oppedahl
carl at oppedahl.com
Wed Nov 27 16:53:54 UTC 2024
what he said
On 11/27/2024 8:16 AM, Mark Kaufman via E-trademarks wrote:
>
> Yes, but attaching the specimen (or several specimens) is yet one more
> step to do, adding time and requiring attention to detail rather than
> streamlining the process. I’m already pining for the good ol’ days…
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark
>
> Mark S. Kaufman
>
> Kaufman & Kahn, LLP
>
> Email: kaufman at kaufmankahn.com <mailto:kaufman at kaufmankahn.com>
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> *From:*E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com> *On
> Behalf Of *Kevin Grierson via E-trademarks
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 27, 2024 9:59 AM
> *To:* For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek
> legal advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
> *Cc:* Kevin Grierson <kgrierson at cm.law>
> *Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
>
> Two thoughts:
>
> 1. Clearly a programming oversight on the PTO’s part, don’t know how
> hard it would be to fix.
> 2. On the other hand, not sure how much of an issue it is, because
> this will almost certainly arise in the context of a signature
> link forwarded to the client by an attorney hired by that client
> to prepare the application. It’s easy enough to forward the
> specimen as well. So the client won’t see the specimen in the form
> itself, but the client will not be flying blind as to what is
> submitted either.
>
> *Kevin Grierson***********
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>
> *From:*E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com> *On
> Behalf Of *O'Connell Jr., Robert via E-trademarks
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 26, 2024 7:18 PM
> *To:* For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek
> legal advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
> *Cc:* O'Connell Jr., Robert <robert.oconnell at orrick.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL
>
> Meanwhile, I have a different question about the new application form
> in TM Center Beta. My paralegal and I have been tentatively trying it
> out, and we did (or tried to do) our first use-based application
> today. And when I received the link to review prior to sending to the
> client for e-signature, I was surprised that I was unable to view the
> specimen that had been uploaded. Am I missing something? My
> paralegal called the Trademark Assistance Center and they confirmed
> that only the person who prepared the form (my paralegal) can see the
> specimen; anyone to whom she forwards the link cannot.
>
> So it appears that TM Center Beta is expecting applicants (whose
> applications are prepared by outside counsel) to sign something under
> the pains and penalties of perjury, /without letting them see
> everything they are signing/. Again, am I missing something? What
> possible justification can there be for that?
>
> SMH, as the kids would say.
>
>
>
> *Robert M. O'Connell, Jr. **Of Counsel *V-card
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> *From:*E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com> *On
> Behalf Of *Emil Ali via E-trademarks
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 26, 2024 6:11 PM
> *To:* For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek
> legal advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
> *Cc:* Emil Ali <emil at mccabeali.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
>
> * [EXTERNAL] *
>
> As someone who works in the ethics space, I get this question about a
> lot of various companies. I’ll address it as to “LegalZoom,” which is
> what you specifically asked.
>
> To the extent you are seeing filings from that company, my
> understanding is that they are in fact coming from a real law firm— LZ
> Legal Services. These applications are reviewed and filed by real
> lawyers. Therefore, they are permitted to practice just like you and
> I would be.
>
> On the other hand, I also get asked about other online filing
> providers where the applicant never speaks to an attorney, and they
> are filed “pro se.” Many members of this listserv likely receive
> clients who get Office Actions associated with those filings, and my
> understanding is those types of companies do not do Office Action
> responses, and don’t otherwise have attorneys involved in the process.
>
> As to why the USPTO has not taken action against those (latter)
> companies who are filing pro se marks—my guess is as good as yours.
> However, one can surmise that they are busy focusing on solo
> practitioners who work with applicants from China. For those of you
> that don’t know, Brad Behar, outside counsel for Amazon, has been
> filing “anonymous” grievances with the USPTO against almost twenty
> trademark lawyers. Contrary to what Amazon says, it appears that they
> do maintain a blacklist, and do take action against those who complain
> about being put on the blacklist.
>
> *Emil J. Ali*
>
> PARTNER
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com> on
> behalf of Laura Geyer via E-trademarks <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2024 2:48 PM
> *To:* For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek
> legal advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
> *Cc:* Laura Geyer <lgeyer at ndgallilaw.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
>
> And here’s where I note that a decent number of “oh, crap, my app got
> refused why?” clients and potential client contacts are because of a
> LegalZoom filing. Why are they even able to operate?
>
> *Laura Talley Geyer*| *Of Counsel*
>
> **
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> https://ndgallilaw.com/
>
> *From:*E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com> *On
> Behalf Of *Michael D. Steger via E-trademarks
> *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2024 4:33 PM
> *To:* 'For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek
> legal advice.' <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
> *Cc:* Michael D. Steger <msteger at steger-law.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
>
> *EXTERNAL EMAIL*
>
> Keep in mind also that many filings by folks that use non-attorney
> services show up as pro se filings. If one uses LegalZoom, then one’s
> own name and email address are listed as the attorney of record.
>
> *From:*E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com> *On
> Behalf Of *Kevin Grierson via E-trademarks
> *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2024 4:28 PM
> *To:* For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek
> legal advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
> *Cc:* Kevin Grierson <kgrierson at cm.law>
> *Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
>
> If I understand Pam’s statement correctly, she was indicating that
> most applications are filed either by pro se filers OR by attorneys
> who aren’t TM specialists. I’d still be surprised if the percent of
> knowledgeable filers was as low as Pam mentioned, but given the
> quality of the filings I’ve seen in a lot of my searches, it wouldn’t
> surprise me if more than 50% of filers are either pro se or lawyers
> who “dabble” in trademark law. If you add in the trademark mills,
> that percentage could be substantially higher.
>
> *Kevin Grierson*********
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> *From:*E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com> *On
> Behalf Of *Ken Boone via E-trademarks
> *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2024 4:18 PM
> *To:* For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek
> legal advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
> *Cc:* Ken Boone <boondogles at hotmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL
>
> If it helps, the two searches below suggest that 400,962/511,679 =
> *78.362%* of TEAS filings for calendar year 2024 have an attorney of
> record entry (where, in theory, pro se applicants do not include an
> attorney of record in their TEAS applications).
>
> 511,679 results for FD:[20240101 TO 20241231] AND SN:98*
>
> 400,962 results for FD:[20240101 TO 20241231] AND SN:98* AND AT:*
>
> ____________________
>
> Ken Boone
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com
> <mailto:e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com>> on behalf of Crane,
> Susan via E-trademarks <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com
> <mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>>
> *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2024 2:59 PM
> *To:* For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek
> legal advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com
> <mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>>
> *Cc:* Crane, Susan <susan.crane at wyndham.com
> <mailto:susan.crane at wyndham.com>>
> *Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
>
> I found an article in the Trademark Reporter with statistics up
> through 2019 that showed appx. 75% filed by an attorney.
>
> *Susan L. Crane*
>
> *Group Vice President, Legal*
>
> *Intellectual Property, Brands & Marketing*
>
> Wyndham Hotels & Resorts, Inc.
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> 22 Sylvan Way
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>
> *From:*E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com
> <mailto:e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com>> *On Behalf Of
> *Janice Housey via E-trademarks
> *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2024 3:44 PM
> *To:* For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek
> legal advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com
> <mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>>
> *Cc:* Janice Housey <jhousey at litmuslaw.com <mailto:jhousey at litmuslaw.com>>
> *Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
>
> Pam— If I read your email correctly you are saying that 15% of
> applications are filed at the USPTO by trademark attorneys? This seems
> widely inaccurate. I am sure like many on this list when I am
> analyzing a mark cited as a 2(d) and/or one raised
>
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> Pam—
>
> If I read your email correctly you are saying that 15% of applications
> are filed at the USPTO by trademark attorneys? This seems widely
> inaccurate. I am sure like many on this list when I am analyzing a
> mark cited as a 2(d) and/or one raised in a search-- I look to see
> who filed the application etc. as part of my analysis. While this is
> not a scientific method, I would say that it is more like 85% of
> applications and registrations I need to look at in more depth are
> filed by a trademark practitioner. Of course, under current rules ANY
> application (or maintenance document) filed on behalf of a non-U.S.
> owner, must be filed by a U.S. attorney. That alone would seem to
> raise the numbers. What are others seeing in terms of likely
> percentage of applications filed by IP attorneys?
>
> */Janice Housey/*
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> Litmus Law PLLC
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> *From:*E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com
> <mailto:e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com>> *On Behalf Of *Kevin
> Grierson via E-trademarks
> *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2024 11:52 AM
> *To:* For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek
> legal advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com
> <mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>>
> *Cc:* Kevin Grierson <kgrierson at cm.law <mailto:kgrierson at cm.law>>
> *Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
>
> That’s an interesting insight, thanks. I’d be really curious to see
> a demographic breakdown of filers, if such a thing exists.
>
> *Kevin Grierson*********
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> kgrierson at cm.law <mailto:kgrierson at cm.law>
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> */Please note: Culhane Meadows is now CM Law/*
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>
> *From:*E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com
> <mailto:e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com>> *On Behalf Of
> *Pamela Chestek via E-trademarks
> *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2024 11:46 AM
> *To:* e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com
> <mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
> *Cc:* Pamela Chestek <pamela at chesteklegal.com
> <mailto:pamela at chesteklegal.com>>
> *Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL
>
> I asked a trademark examining attorney one time what their estimate
> was on the number of applications they process that are from
> experienced trademark attorneys, rather than pro se or the passing
> lawyer who does applications as part of their general practice. Their
> estimate was 15%. We are a very small part of the user base and they
> won't be optimizing for us.
>
> Pam
>
> Pamela S. Chestek
> Chestek Legal
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>
> On 11/22/2024 8:40 AM, Kevin Grierson via E-trademarks wrote:
>
> I’m all for making the USPTO as accessible as possible. But
> making the trademark filing center mobile-friendly to the
> detriment of the majority of the user base doesn’t seem like a
> particularly sensible approach. They could, for example, have
> created an app for mobile users, or they could have created
> separate versions of the website for mobile devices and desktops.
> They could even have created two separate filing paths, one with
> more explicit steps and instructions (and more screens) for pro se
> filers and another for regular filers that more closely resembles
> what we have in TEAS now.
>
> And I have to wonder what percent of filers fall into the category
> you describe. I don’t imagine many people who live on less than
> $30K and have no internet access other than their phones are going
> to be willing or able to pay $350 or more for a trademark
> application, and unlike the patent side of the PTO, there’s no
> discount for small or micro entities for TM filings.
>
> *Kevin Grierson*********
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> kgrierson at cm.law <mailto:kgrierson at cm.law>
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> */Please note: Culhane Meadows is now CM Law/*
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>
> *From:*E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com>
> <mailto:e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com>*On Behalf Of
> *Rachael Dickson via E-trademarks
> *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2024 11:27 AM
> *To:* For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to
> seek legal advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
> <mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
> *Cc:* Rachael Dickson <rachael at catalyticlaw.com>
> <mailto:rachael at catalyticlaw.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL
>
> I suspect that this feature is not, in fact, intended for
> trademark attorneys, but for the 15% of U.S. adults who are
> smartphone-only internet users - who have a smartphone, but do not
> have home internet access. This is seen most commonly in adults
> with an annual income of $30,000 or less.
>
> Seems like it would be nice if they could file a trademark
> application too, even if they don't have access to a computer, yes?
>
> https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/fact-sheet/mobile/?tabItem=011fca0d-9756-4f48-b352-d58f343696bf#smartphone-dependency-over-time
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.pewresearch.org/internet/fact-sheet/mobile/?tabItem=011fca0d-9756-4f48-b352-d58f343696bf*smartphone-dependency-over-time__;Iw!!Nf401RNTQFE14GfWW3o!lDgTKvxMeiROH7S0BWfLX4Nfd6BlP3qm6hLZDyN7PUSqv9WsogL1m3caK_kB4-UzkPWbgB36zyzfdVlLsUwimdDqSf0ma4Q$>
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>
>
> *Rachael Dickson *(she/her)
>
> Trademark Attorney | *Catalytic Law*
>
> cell(703) 831-7340 <tel:7038317340>
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>
> On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 10:59 AM Kevin Grierson via E-trademarks
> <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com> wrote:
>
> I mean, I’m sure that there are examples of programmers
> designing a UI who were more out of touch with their user
> base, but I honestly can’t think of any offhand.
>
> *Kevin Grierson*********
>
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> 757-726-7799 <tel:757-726-7799>
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> 866-521-5663
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> kgrierson at cm.law <mailto:kgrierson at cm.law>
>
> */Please note: Culhane Meadows is now CM Law/*
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>
> *From:*E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com
> <mailto:e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com>> *On Behalf
> Of *Mark Kaufman via E-trademarks
> *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2024 10:40 AM
> *To:* Annette Heller <tmattorneyheller at aol.com
> <mailto:tmattorneyheller at aol.com>>; For trademark
> practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal
> advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com
> <mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>>
> *Cc:* Mark Kaufman <kaufman at kaufmankahn.com
> <mailto:kaufman at kaufmankahn.com>>
> *Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL
>
> “Oh, the kids are gonna love this…”
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark
>
> Mark S. Kaufman
>
> Kaufman & Kahn, LLP
>
> Email: kaufman at kaufmankahn.com
>
> www.kaufmankahn.com
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>
> On Nov 22, 2024, at 10:39 AM, Annette Heller via E-trademarks
> <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Why would one file an application on a mobile phone? No I
> will not be filing on a phone!!!!
>
> Annette
>
> Annette P. Heller
> Trademark/Copyright Attorney
> TM Law & Associates
> 400 Chesterfield Center Ste 400
> Chesterfield [St Louis] MO 63017
>
> www.TrademarkAtty.com
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.trademarkatty.com/__;!!Nf401RNTQFE14GfWW3o!lDgTKvxMeiROH7S0BWfLX4Nfd6BlP3qm6hLZDyN7PUSqv9WsogL1m3caK_kB4-UzkPWbgB36zyzfdVlLsUwimdDqUSqxkw0$>
>
> 314-469-2610 Fax 314-469-4850
>
> In a message dated 11/22/2024 9:07:50 AM Central Standard
> Time, e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com writes:
>
> Have to shake my head at the top feature they tout on this
> email for the new TM Center—“a mobile-friendly design”?!?
> Maybe I’m just a dinosaur, but are any of you preparing
> and filing trademark applications from your smartphone?
>
> *Kevin Grierson*********
>
>
>
> |
>
>
>
> Partner
>
> <image001.png>
>
>
>
> <image002.png>
>
>
>
> 757-726-7799
>
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>
> 866-521-5663
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>
> kgrierson at cm.law <mailto:kgrierson at cm.law>
>
> /*Please note: Culhane Meadows is now CM Law*/
>
> *From:*U.S. Patent and Trademark Office
> <subscriptioncenter at subscriptions.uspto.gov
> <mailto:subscriptioncenter at subscriptions.uspto.gov>>
> *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2024 10:03 AM
> *To:* Kevin Grierson <kgrierson at cm.law
> <mailto:kgrierson at cm.law>>
> *Subject:* Try Trademark Center beta
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL
>
>
>
> Having trouble viewing this email? View it as a Web page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/links-1.govdelivery.com/CL0/https:*2F*2Fcontent.govdelivery.com*2Faccounts*2FUSPTO*2Fbulletins*2F3be0875/1/0100019354664827-bebbfa59-f7c9-440b-b2f5-50a14f5372ca-000000/wew_E64H7psXSix1v-18t6YaPVIrmoGS7usn10CE_mY=380__;JSUlJSUl!!Nf401RNTQFE14GfWW3o!lDgTKvxMeiROH7S0BWfLX4Nfd6BlP3qm6hLZDyN7PUSqv9WsogL1m3caK_kB4-UzkPWbgB36zyzfdVlLsUwimdDqEnL3Qvw$>.
>
>
> Trademark Alert
>
>
>
>
> Try Trademark Center beta
>
> Trademark Center Beta Graphic Nov 2024
>
> This summer, the USPTO launched the beta version of our
> brand-new Trademark Center. For six months, we’ve offered
> the Trademark Electronic Application System (TEAS) and
> Trademark Center initial applications in parallel and used
> your valuable feedback to refine the new application.
>
> On *January 18, 2025*, we will retire the TEAS initial
> application forms. Until then, you have the option to file
> your new application in either Trademark Center or TEAS.
> The cost to file remains the same in both systems.
>
> *Transition from TEAS*
>
> Over the next few years, we’ll gradually transition all
> trademark forms from TEAS and TEAS International (TEASi)
> to Trademark Center.
>
> *Trademark Center features*
>
> We designed Trademark Center with valuable feedback from
> attorneys, paralegals, entrepreneurs, and business owners.
> Our new system offers:
>
> 1. A mobile-friendly design
> 2. A new, guided user interface
> 3. Drafts that automatically save every 60 seconds
> 4. Status tracking in a new filing docket
> 5. Transparent application costs that update as you go
> 6. Prompts to complete commonly omitted information, like
> personal name consent, translation, and transliteration
> 7. Improved character limits for street, city, and docket
> number fields
> 8. A draft sharing feature for attorneys and their
> sponsored support staff
>
> *Training*
>
> We’re hosting biweekly webinars
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/links-1.govdelivery.com/CL0/https:*2F*2Fwww.uspto.gov*2Fabout-us*2Fevents*2Ftrademark-center-webinars*3Futm_campaign=subscriptioncenter*26utm_content=*26utm_medium=email*26utm_name=*26utm_source=govdelivery*26utm_term=/1/0100019354664827-bebbfa59-f7c9-440b-b2f5-50a14f5372ca-000000/Tc29KV6mWIzP2JUWVqW3w2eoCP98F8ODoqMnw5_ZDgQ=380__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Nf401RNTQFE14GfWW3o!lDgTKvxMeiROH7S0BWfLX4Nfd6BlP3qm6hLZDyN7PUSqv9WsogL1m3caK_kB4-UzkPWbgB36zyzfdVlLsUwimdDqLEicncw$>to
> help you get familiar with Trademark Center. In the
> meantime, you can visit our Trademark Center page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/links-1.govdelivery.com/CL0/https:*2F*2Fwww.uspto.gov*2Ftrademarks*2Fapply*2Ftrademark-center*3Futm_campaign=subscriptioncenter*26utm_content=*26utm_medium=email*26utm_name=*26utm_source=govdelivery*26utm_term=/1/0100019354664827-bebbfa59-f7c9-440b-b2f5-50a14f5372ca-000000/8a7P81YOw8CuA5l2ilYhQoTkbZvirC7CPApdHjg-qCE=380__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Nf401RNTQFE14GfWW3o!lDgTKvxMeiROH7S0BWfLX4Nfd6BlP3qm6hLZDyN7PUSqv9WsogL1m3caK_kB4-UzkPWbgB36zyzfdVlLsUwimdDqf379Y3E$>to
> watch demonstration videos and learn about upcoming
> features and enhancements.
>
> *Feedback*
>
> We hope you’ll use Trademark Center and provide feedback
> so we can continue improving the platform. You can submit
> comments and suggestions via:
>
> 1. The feedback button on each page in Trademark Center
> 2. Our feedback form
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