[E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
Mark Kaufman
kaufman at kaufmankahn.com
Wed Nov 27 15:16:24 UTC 2024
Yes, but attaching the specimen (or several specimens) is yet one more step
to do, adding time and requiring attention to detail rather than
streamlining the process. I’m already pining for the good ol’ days…
Thanks,
Mark
Mark S. Kaufman
Kaufman & Kahn, LLP
Email: kaufman at kaufmankahn.com
www.kaufmankahn.com
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*From:* E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com> *On Behalf
Of *Kevin Grierson via E-trademarks
*Sent:* Wednesday, November 27, 2024 9:59 AM
*To:* For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal
advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
*Cc:* Kevin Grierson <kgrierson at cm.law>
*Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
Two thoughts:
1. Clearly a programming oversight on the PTO’s part, don’t know how
hard it would be to fix.
2. On the other hand, not sure how much of an issue it is, because this
will almost certainly arise in the context of a signature link forwarded to
the client by an attorney hired by that client to prepare the application.
It’s easy enough to forward the specimen as well. So the client won’t see
the specimen in the form itself, but the client will not be flying blind as
to what is submitted either.
*Kevin Grierson*********
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Partner
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757-726-7799
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kgrierson at cm.law
*Please note: Culhane Meadows is now CM Law*
*From:* E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com> *On Behalf
Of *O'Connell Jr., Robert via E-trademarks
*Sent:* Tuesday, November 26, 2024 7:18 PM
*To:* For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal
advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
*Cc:* O'Connell Jr., Robert <robert.oconnell at orrick.com>
*Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
EXTERNAL EMAIL
Meanwhile, I have a different question about the new application form in TM
Center Beta. My paralegal and I have been tentatively trying it out, and
we did (or tried to do) our first use-based application today. And when I
received the link to review prior to sending to the client for e-signature,
I was surprised that I was unable to view the specimen that had been
uploaded. Am I missing something? My paralegal called the Trademark
Assistance Center and they confirmed that only the person who prepared the
form (my paralegal) can see the specimen; anyone to whom she forwards the
link cannot.
So it appears that TM Center Beta is expecting applicants (whose
applications are prepared by outside counsel) to sign something under the
pains and penalties of perjury, *without letting them see everything they
are signing*. Again, am I missing something? What possible justification
can there be for that?
SMH, as the kids would say.
*Robert M. O'Connell, Jr. **Of Counsel *[image: V-card]
<https://www.orrick.com/api/sitecore/PersonnelPage/vCard?personnelGuid=D70E3581-E851-4059-998C-CB6F6087D51C>
*Intellectual Property | *Boston
<https://www.google.com/maps/place/222+Berkeley+St+%232000,+Boston,+MA+02116/@42.3506611,-71.075501,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x89e37a74ad98b309:0xe4dba0ff17883d10!8m2!3d42.3506611!4d-71.0733123>
T: 1-617-880-1877
robert.oconnell at orrick.com
*From:* E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com> *On Behalf
Of *Emil Ali via E-trademarks
*Sent:* Tuesday, November 26, 2024 6:11 PM
*To:* For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal
advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
*Cc:* Emil Ali <emil at mccabeali.com>
*Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
* [EXTERNAL] *
As someone who works in the ethics space, I get this question about a lot
of various companies. I’ll address it as to “LegalZoom,” which is what you
specifically asked.
To the extent you are seeing filings from that company, my understanding is
that they are in fact coming from a real law firm— LZ Legal Services.
These applications are reviewed and filed by real lawyers. Therefore, they
are permitted to practice just like you and I would be.
On the other hand, I also get asked about other online filing providers
where the applicant never speaks to an attorney, and they are filed “pro
se.” Many members of this listserv likely receive clients who get Office
Actions associated with those filings, and my understanding is those types
of companies do not do Office Action responses, and don’t otherwise have
attorneys involved in the process.
As to why the USPTO has not taken action against those (latter) companies
who are filing pro se marks—my guess is as good as yours. However, one can
surmise that they are busy focusing on solo practitioners who work with
applicants from China. For those of you that don’t know, Brad Behar,
outside counsel for Amazon, has been filing “anonymous” grievances with the
USPTO against almost twenty trademark lawyers. Contrary to what Amazon
says, it appears that they do maintain a blacklist, and do take action
against those who complain about being put on the blacklist.
*Emil J. Ali*
PARTNER
*P:* 310.596.1234 | *C:* 202.556.3645 | *F:* 310.649.7890
emil at mccabeali.com
[image: McCabe & Ali, LLP]
13337 South Street, Suite 555, Cerritos, CA 90703
O: 877.633.4097 | mccabeali.com
------------------------------
*From:* E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com> on behalf of
Laura Geyer via E-trademarks <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
*Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2024 2:48 PM
*To:* For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal
advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
*Cc:* Laura Geyer <lgeyer at ndgallilaw.com>
*Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
And here’s where I note that a decent number of “oh, crap, my app got
refused why?” clients and potential client contacts are because of a
LegalZoom filing. Why are they even able to operate?
*Laura Talley Geyer* | *Of Counsel*
*ND Galli Law LLC*
1200 G Street, N.W., Ste 800
Washington, DC 20005
Tel: (202) 599-9019 (direct)
https://ndgallilaw.com/laura-geyer/
https://ndgallilaw.com/
*From:* E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com> *On Behalf
Of *Michael D. Steger via E-trademarks
*Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2024 4:33 PM
*To:* 'For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek
legal advice.' <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
*Cc:* Michael D. Steger <msteger at steger-law.com>
*Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
*EXTERNAL EMAIL*
Keep in mind also that many filings by folks that use non-attorney services
show up as pro se filings. If one uses LegalZoom, then one’s own name and
email address are listed as the attorney of record.
*From:* E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com> *On Behalf
Of *Kevin Grierson via E-trademarks
*Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2024 4:28 PM
*To:* For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal
advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
*Cc:* Kevin Grierson <kgrierson at cm.law>
*Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
If I understand Pam’s statement correctly, she was indicating that most
applications are filed either by pro se filers OR by attorneys who aren’t
TM specialists. I’d still be surprised if the percent of knowledgeable
filers was as low as Pam mentioned, but given the quality of the filings
I’ve seen in a lot of my searches, it wouldn’t surprise me if more than 50%
of filers are either pro se or lawyers who “dabble” in trademark law. If
you add in the trademark mills, that percentage could be substantially
higher.
*Kevin Grierson*********
|
Partner
757-726-7799
866-521-5663
kgrierson at cm.law
*Please note: Culhane Meadows is now CM Law*
*From:* E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com> *On Behalf
Of *Ken Boone via E-trademarks
*Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2024 4:18 PM
*To:* For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal
advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
*Cc:* Ken Boone <boondogles at hotmail.com>
*Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
EXTERNAL EMAIL
If it helps, the two searches below suggest that 400,962/511,679 = *78.362%* of
TEAS filings for calendar year 2024 have an attorney of record entry
(where, in theory, pro se applicants do not include an attorney of record
in their TEAS applications).
511,679 results for FD:[20240101 TO 20241231] AND SN:98*
400,962 results for FD:[20240101 TO 20241231] AND SN:98* AND AT:*
____________________
Ken Boone
------------------------------
*From:* E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com> on behalf of
Crane, Susan via E-trademarks <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
*Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2024 2:59 PM
*To:* For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal
advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
*Cc:* Crane, Susan <susan.crane at wyndham.com>
*Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
I found an article in the Trademark Reporter with statistics up through
2019 that showed appx. 75% filed by an attorney.
*Susan L. Crane*
*Group Vice President, Legal*
*Intellectual Property, Brands & Marketing*
Wyndham Hotels & Resorts, Inc.
22 Sylvan Way
Parsippany, NJ 07054
*O* (973) 753-6455
*M* (973) 879-3420
Susan.Crane at wyndham.com
*From:* E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com> *On Behalf
Of *Janice Housey via E-trademarks
*Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2024 3:44 PM
*To:* For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal
advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
*Cc:* Janice Housey <jhousey at litmuslaw.com>
*Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
Pam— If I read your email correctly you are saying that 15% of applications
are filed at the USPTO by trademark attorneys? This seems widely
inaccurate. I am sure like many on this list when I am analyzing a mark
cited as a 2(d) and/or one raised
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Pam—
If I read your email correctly you are saying that 15% of applications are
filed at the USPTO by trademark attorneys? This seems widely inaccurate.
I am sure like many on this list when I am analyzing a mark cited as a 2(d)
and/or one raised in a search-- I look to see who filed the application
etc. as part of my analysis. While this is not a scientific method, I
would say that it is more like 85% of applications and registrations I need
to look at in more depth are filed by a trademark practitioner. Of course,
under current rules ANY application (or maintenance document) filed on
behalf of a non-U.S. owner, must be filed by a U.S. attorney. That alone
would seem to raise the numbers. What are others seeing in terms of likely
percentage of applications filed by IP attorneys?
*Janice Housey*
Litmus Law PLLC
4 Weems Lane #240
Winchester, Virginia 22601
703.957.5274 office
703.851.6737 cell
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*From:* E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com> *On Behalf
Of *Kevin Grierson via E-trademarks
*Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2024 11:52 AM
*To:* For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal
advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
*Cc:* Kevin Grierson <kgrierson at cm.law>
*Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
That’s an interesting insight, thanks. I’d be really curious to see a
demographic breakdown of filers, if such a thing exists.
*Kevin Grierson*********
|
Partner
757-726-7799
866-521-5663
kgrierson at cm.law
*Please note: Culhane Meadows is now CM Law*
*From:* E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com> *On Behalf
Of *Pamela Chestek via E-trademarks
*Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2024 11:46 AM
*To:* e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com
*Cc:* Pamela Chestek <pamela at chesteklegal.com>
*Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
EXTERNAL EMAIL
I asked a trademark examining attorney one time what their estimate was on
the number of applications they process that are from experienced trademark
attorneys, rather than pro se or the passing lawyer who does applications
as part of their general practice. Their estimate was 15%. We are a very
small part of the user base and they won't be optimizing for us.
Pam
Pamela S. Chestek
Chestek Legal
PLEASE NOTE OUR NEW MAILING ADDRESS
4641 Post St.
Unit 4316
El Dorado Hills, CA 95762
+1 919-800-8033
pamela at chesteklegal
www.chesteklegal.com
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On 11/22/2024 8:40 AM, Kevin Grierson via E-trademarks wrote:
I’m all for making the USPTO as accessible as possible. But making the
trademark filing center mobile-friendly to the detriment of the majority of
the user base doesn’t seem like a particularly sensible approach. They
could, for example, have created an app for mobile users, or they could
have created separate versions of the website for mobile devices and
desktops. They could even have created two separate filing paths, one with
more explicit steps and instructions (and more screens) for pro se filers
and another for regular filers that more closely resembles what we have in
TEAS now.
And I have to wonder what percent of filers fall into the category you
describe. I don’t imagine many people who live on less than $30K and have
no internet access other than their phones are going to be willing or able
to pay $350 or more for a trademark application, and unlike the patent side
of the PTO, there’s no discount for small or micro entities for TM filings.
*Kevin Grierson*********
|
Partner
757-726-7799
866-521-5663
kgrierson at cm.law
*Please note: Culhane Meadows is now CM Law*
*From:* E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com>
<e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com> *On Behalf Of *Rachael Dickson
via E-trademarks
*Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2024 11:27 AM
*To:* For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal
advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com> <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
*Cc:* Rachael Dickson <rachael at catalyticlaw.com> <rachael at catalyticlaw.com>
*Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
EXTERNAL EMAIL
I suspect that this feature is not, in fact, intended for trademark
attorneys, but for the 15% of U.S. adults who are smartphone-only internet
users - who have a smartphone, but do not have home internet access. This
is seen most commonly in adults with an annual income of $30,000 or less.
Seems like it would be nice if they could file a trademark application too,
even if they don't have access to a computer, yes?
https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/fact-sheet/mobile/?tabItem=011fca0d-9756-4f48-b352-d58f343696bf#smartphone-dependency-over-time
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*Rachael Dickson *(she/her)
Trademark Attorney | *Catalytic Law*
[image: cell] (703) 831-7340 <7038317340>
[image: email] Rachael at CatalyticLaw.com
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On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 10:59 AM Kevin Grierson via E-trademarks <
e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com> wrote:
I mean, I’m sure that there are examples of programmers designing a UI who
were more out of touch with their user base, but I honestly can’t think of
any offhand.
*Kevin Grierson*********
|
Partner
757-726-7799
866-521-5663
kgrierson at cm.law
*Please note: Culhane Meadows is now CM Law*
*From:* E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com> *On Behalf
Of *Mark Kaufman via E-trademarks
*Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2024 10:40 AM
*To:* Annette Heller <tmattorneyheller at aol.com>; For trademark
practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <
e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
*Cc:* Mark Kaufman <kaufman at kaufmankahn.com>
*Subject:* Re: [E-trademarks] FW: Try Trademark Center beta
EXTERNAL EMAIL
“Oh, the kids are gonna love this…”
Thanks,
Mark
Mark S. Kaufman
Kaufman & Kahn, LLP
Email: kaufman at kaufmankahn.com
www.kaufmankahn.com
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10 Grand Central
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On Nov 22, 2024, at 10:39 AM, Annette Heller via E-trademarks <
e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com> wrote:
Why would one file an application on a mobile phone? No I will not be
filing on a phone!!!!
Annette
Annette P. Heller
Trademark/Copyright Attorney
TM Law & Associates
400 Chesterfield Center Ste 400
Chesterfield [St Louis] MO 63017
www.TrademarkAtty.com
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314-469-2610 Fax 314-469-4850
In a message dated 11/22/2024 9:07:50 AM Central Standard Time,
e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com writes:
Have to shake my head at the top feature they tout on this email for the
new TM Center—“a mobile-friendly design”?!? Maybe I’m just a dinosaur, but
are any of you preparing and filing trademark applications from your
smartphone?
*Kevin Grierson*********
|
Partner
<image001.png>
<image002.png>
757-726-7799
<image003.png>
866-521-5663
<image004.png>
kgrierson at cm.law
*Please note: Culhane Meadows is now CM Law*
*From:* U.S. Patent and Trademark Office <
subscriptioncenter at subscriptions.uspto.gov>
*Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2024 10:03 AM
*To:* Kevin Grierson <kgrierson at cm.law>
*Subject:* Try Trademark Center beta
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.
Trademark Alert
Try Trademark Center beta
[image: Trademark Center Beta Graphic Nov 2024]
This summer, the USPTO launched the beta version of our brand-new Trademark
Center. For six months, we’ve offered the Trademark Electronic Application
System (TEAS) and Trademark Center initial applications in parallel and
used your valuable feedback to refine the new application.
On *January 18, 2025*, we will retire the TEAS initial application forms.
Until then, you have the option to file your new application in either
Trademark Center or TEAS. The cost to file remains the same in both
systems.
*Transition from TEAS*
Over the next few years, we’ll gradually transition all trademark forms
from TEAS and TEAS International (TEASi) to Trademark Center.
*Trademark Center features*
We designed Trademark Center with valuable feedback from attorneys,
paralegals, entrepreneurs, and business owners. Our new system offers:
1. A mobile-friendly design
2. A new, guided user interface
3. Drafts that automatically save every 60 seconds
4. Status tracking in a new filing docket
5. Transparent application costs that update as you go
6. Prompts to complete commonly omitted information, like personal name
consent, translation, and transliteration
7. Improved character limits for street, city, and docket number fields
8. A draft sharing feature for attorneys and their sponsored support
staff
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