[E-trademarks] XE versus Wise (was Good, Inexpensive service for bank wire payments)

Sat Nov 25 00:10:16 EST 2023

Wise recently changed the payment details for receiving money into my USD account at Wise. The first time someone tried to wire funds from the Royal Bank of Canada in USD to my USD account at Wise (which meant a SWIFT transaction), someone charged a $20 fee, so I received $20 less than intended. The client sent me the information they received from RBC, which indicated that RBC had charged the client a wire payment fee, but the payment amount RBC had wired to me was the correct amount. There doesn’t appear to be any intermediary bank other than the Community Federal Savings Bank that Wise uses for receiving USD wire payments, so it looks like CFSB silently charged me a $20 wire transfer fee, on top of the $4.14 Wise fee.

I tried to confirm that with Wise customer service, but they were completely unhelpful, saying that they have “no access to external fees applied other than our regular wise fee” and that due to the nature of SWIFT transactions, they have no control over what banks can take.

Has anyone else seen this behavior?

Best regards,
Richard A. Schafer | Schafer IP Law
P.O. Box 230081 | Houston, TX 77223
M: 832.283.6564 | richard at schafer-ip.com<mailto:richard at schafer-ip.com>

From: E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com> On Behalf Of Carl Oppedahl via E-trademarks
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2023 5:17 AM
To: For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
Cc: Carl Oppedahl <carl at oppedahl.com>
Subject: [E-trademarks] XE versus Wise (was Good, Inexpensive service for bank wire payments)

Round-trips of money going to and from a bricks-and-mortar bank account cost money.

And yes, the currency exchange fee (if any) is something to consider as a distinct cost from a foreign money transfer fee.

So for example if I already have a balance in CAD, and if I am sending CAD to (let's say) a trademark firm in Canada that invoices us in CAD, then there is no need for any currency conversion fee.  The only service that I need to purchase is "get the CAD from here to there".

And with Wise, this fee is CAD 3.57.

So let's go step by step.  If we start with $744.01 and convert it at XE's midmarket rate of 1.36837 to CAD, you would get CAD1018.19.

With Wise, if we start with $744.01 and convert it to CAD, there is a two-step calculation.  First there is a currency conversion fee of USD 3.85.  The leftover USD is 740.16.  this gets converted to CAD using Wise's conversion rate of 1.36840 which deviates from mid-market rate by only about 0.2%.  This yields CAD 1012.83.

Now suppose what we are doing with these newly acquired CAD is sending them to the Canadian trademark firm.  That costs the above-mentioned fee of CAD 3.57.  So the Canadian firm would receive CAD 1009.26 if Wise were used.

But on this same set of starting conditions, if XE is used, the Canadian trademark firm receives only CAD 997.35.

So XE is charging maybe CAD 11.91 more, but it is hidden away in the exchange rate.

But there is another aspect that maybe has not been mentioned, namely where exactly the $744.01 comes from.

If XE.com is used, I wonder if the $744.01 is getting pulled from a bricks-and-mortar bank account?  If so, then there is an ACH fee hidden away in the currency exchange rate.

If Wise is used, then we can talk about any of several places the $744.01 can come from.  If it comes from our USD balance at Wise, then there is no ACH fee.  if it comes from our bricks-and-mortar bank account, then there is an ACH fee of something like 51¢.

But anyway on a first look, the XE approach loses maybe 1.2% compared with the Wise approach.
On 11/22/2023 6:18 PM, Jim Larsen wrote:
Yes, real numbers:  Canadian firm charged $997.35 CAD.  I entered that amount and XE calculated the U.S. dollars needed, pulled it from my bank account, and transferred the calculated amount in under two business days.

[cid:image001.png at 01DA1F29.BFD330E0]

Best regards,

-Jim

James C. Larsen
Attorney
Larsen IP PLLC
p: 425.298.6846
e: jim at Larsen-IP.com<mailto:jim at Larsen-IP.com>
w. www.Larsen-IP.com<http://www.Larsen-IP.com>

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From: Carl Oppedahl <carl at oppedahl.com><mailto:carl at oppedahl.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 22, 2023 at 3:51 PM
To: For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com><mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
Subject: Re: [E-trademarks] Good, Inexpensire service for bank wire payments

can you quote the overall results?  You were charged a total of some number of USD, and the Canadian firm received how many CAD?

I'd like to see what it would have cost to do the same thing in Wise.
On 11/22/2023 4:23 PM, Jim Larsen via E-trademarks wrote:
I just started using XE.com for U.S.->foreign transfers.  No (separate) wire fee.  Indeed, the entire cost of the transaction is built into the exchange rate.  Example: I recently sent payment to a Canadian firm.  Spot rate was 1 USD = 1.3405 CAD.  My calculations suggest this is about 2.9% worse than public spot FX price (average of about 1.38 that day).  So, similar to credit card fees for most services for domestic transactions.  Customer service (on my admittedly low volume so far) was excellent.  I had several calls setting things up and they were very helpful.

Best regards,

-Jim

James C. Larsen
Attorney
Larsen IP PLLC
p: 425.298.6846
e: jim at Larsen-IP.com<mailto:jim at Larsen-IP.com>
w. www.Larsen-IP.com<http://www.Larsen-IP.com>

NOTICE OF CONFIDENTIALITY: The information contained in this email, including any attachments, is confidential and may be privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual(s) or entity named herein. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or authorized agent, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. Unintended recipients are requested to notify the sender immediately and to permanently delete this e-mail, any attachments, and copies.

From: E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com><mailto:e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com> on behalf of Lara Pearson via E-trademarks <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com><mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 22, 2023 at 12:46 PM
To: For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com><mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>
Cc: Lara Pearson <lara at brandgeek.net><mailto:lara at brandgeek.net>
Subject: Re: [E-trademarks] Good, Inexpensire service for bank wire payments
 I pay using a Corp Platinum Amex as often as possible b/t there are no foreign transaction fees, but not all firms take CCs or Amex.

WISE is not available in Nevada. My bank makes me go in to make a foreign wire & charges $30/per.

Any runners-up to Wise?

Thanks!

Holiday cheers!

Lara Pearson (she/her/hers) [Why pronouns<https://medium.com/gender-inclusivit/why-i-put-pronouns-on-my-email-signature-and-linkedin-profile-and-you-should-too-d3dc942c8743>?] (Hear how I say my name<https://namedrop.io/larapearson>)

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On Tue, Nov 21, 2023 at 3:09 PM Richard Schafer via E-trademarks <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>> wrote:
Wise has been a godsend for my solo practice. Highly recommended.

Best regards,
Richard A. Schafer | Schafer IP Law
P.O. Box 230081 | Houston, TX 77223
M: 832.283.6564 | richard at schafer-ip.com<mailto:richard at schafer-ip.com>

From: E-trademarks <e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks-bounces at oppedahl-lists.com>> On Behalf Of Dineen Wasylik via E-trademarks
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2023 11:14 AM
To: For trademark practitioners. This is not for laypersons to seek legal advice. <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>>
Cc: Dineen Wasylik <dineen at wasylik.net<mailto:dineen at wasylik.net>>; patentpractice at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:patentpractice at oppedahl-lists.com>
Subject: Re: [E-trademarks] Good, Inexpensire service for bank wire payments

I agree with Carlk, though I think they now call it just "wise" but wise.com<http://wise.com> is what I have based on recommendations from other practitioners.  It is easy and much less expensive than bank-based wires.  It handles currency conversion much better than my bank folks did, too.

Best,
Dineen

On Tue, Nov 21, 2023 at 5:58 AM Carl Oppedahl via E-trademarks <e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com<mailto:e-trademarks at oppedahl-lists.com>> wrote:
See
https://blog.oppedahl.com/eventually-every-patent-and-trademark-firm-will-have-a-transferwise-account/

On 11/20/2023 10:53 PM, voyer--- via E-trademarks wrote:
> A year or maybe more ago, there was elist discussion of a good, inexpensive service for bank wire services.
> At least internationally, perhaps also domestic.  My saved copy is now hiding from me.
> Would appreciate contact info for that service, and it is stlil a good recommendation. Thanks,
>
> Daniel Kegan *  847-452-2599
> Baron Harris Healey, Of Counsel
> <DKegan at BHHLawFirm.com<mailto:DKegan at BHHLawFirm.com>>
> <http://www.BHHLawFirm.com>
> Balanced Counsel for Smart Clients®
> 29 Kendal Dr
> Kennett Square PA 19348-2323 USA
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